1 CERTIFIED COPY 2 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 3 FOR THE COUNTY OF RIVERSIDE 4 DIAMOND FARMING COMPANY, a ) 5 California corporation, ) ) 6 Plaintiff, ) ) 7 vs. ) No. RIC 344436 ) C/W 344668 and 8 CITY OF LANCASTER, et al., ) 353840 ) 9 Defendants. ) ______________________________________) 10 WM. BOLTHOUSE FARMS, INC.; a ) Michigan corporation, ) 11 ) Plaintiff, ) 12 ) vs. ) 13 ) CITY OF LANCASTER, et al., ) 14 ) Defendants. ) 15 ______________________________________) 16 VOLUME II 17 DEPOSITION OF JOSEPH C. SCALMANINI, P.E., a 18 witness herein, taken by Plaintiff DIAMOND FARMING 19 COMPANY, at 3610 14th Street, Riverside, 20 California, at 10:09 a.m., on Monday, June 10, 21 2002, before Ingrid Hosea, CSR 7798. 22 23 Hutchings Number 02-09815-RI 24 25 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 For Plaintiff DIAMOND FARMING COMPANY: 4 LEBEAU THELEN, LLP 5 BY BOB H. JOYCE 6 5001 East Commercenter Drive, Suite 300 7 Bakersfield, California 93889-2092 8 9 For Plaintiff WM. BOLTHOUSE FARMS: 10 CLIFFORD & BROWN 11 BY RICHARD G. ZIMMER 12 1430 Truxton Avenue, Suite 900 13 Bakersfield, California 93301-5230 14 15 For Defendant ROSAMOND COMMUNITY SERVICES DISTRICT: 16 BEST, BEST & KRIEGER, LLP 17 BY JEFFREY V. DUNN 18 3750 University Avenue, Fourth Floor 19 Riverside, California 92502 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 For Defendant LOS ANGELES COUNTY WATERWORKS DISTRICT 4 NOS. 37 AND 40: 5 REDWINE AND SHERRILL 6 BY DAVID F. HUBBARD 7 1950 Market Street 8 Riverside, California 92501 9 10 For Defendant PALMDALE WATER DISTRICT, QUARTZ HILL WATER 11 DISTRICT: 12 LAGERLOF, SENECAL, BRADLEY, GOSNEY & KRUSE, LLP 13 BY REBECCA J. THYNE 14 301 North Lake Avenue, 10th Floor 15 Pasadena, California 91101 16 17 For Defendant CITY OF LANCASTER: 18 STRADLING YOCCA CARLSON & RAUTH 19 BY LIAM A. CONNEL 20 660 Newport Center Drive, Suite 1600 21 Newport Beach, California 92660 22 23 24 25 68 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Also Present: 2 MARIE METCALF 3 N. THOMAS SHEAHAN 4 E. STEWART JOHNSTON 5 6 I N D E X 7 WITNESS: JOSEPH C. SCALMANINI, P.E. 8 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 9 MR. ZIMMER 71 10 11 12 E X H I B I T S 13 PLAINTIFF DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED MARKED 14 E File 193 220 15 F Cross section 197 220 16 G Bloyd documents 199 220 17 H Copies of maps 201 220 18 I Billing records 202 220 19 J Correspondence 203 220 20 K Downloads from Internet 205 220 21 L Manila folder 206 220 22 M Manila folder 206 220 23 24 25 69 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 JOSEPH C. SCALMANINI, P.E., 2 a witness herein, having been sworn, testifies as 3 follows: 4 5 MR. ZIMMER: Jeff, before we get started -- 6 MR. DUNN: Sure. 7 MR. ZIMMER: -- one thing we didn't -- has 8 everybody -- we're dealing with Mr. Scalmanini today, 9 solely as to Phase 1 issues, has everybody signed the 10 Phase 1 stip? 11 MR. DUNN: I believe we have. 12 Is everybody else aware of the Phase 1 stipulation 13 that was stipulated? 14 MR. JOYCE: It's a moot point in light of the fact 15 that it was transmitted to the Court as part of the most 16 recent status conference, and she has pretty much 17 adopted it. 18 MR. ZIMMER: Everybody understands we're doing 19 Phase 1 issues only as set forth in the stipulation set 20 forth in the status conference. 21 MR. JOYCE: The agreed statement of issue. 22 MR. ZIMMER: The agreed statement of the issue for 23 Phase 1, everybody is. 24 MR. DUNN: Yes. 25 MR. JOYCE: Yeah, I agree. 70 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. CONNEL: Correct as to all counsel? 2 MS. THYNE: Yes. 3 MR. JOYCE: Yes. 4 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. 5 6 -EXAMINATION- 7 8 BY MR. ZIMMER: 9 Q. Mr. Scalmanini, I would like to start out 10 today. I don't claim to be an expert like you are in 11 this field. I would like to get some kind of general 12 parameters to educate myself as to, you know, the 13 various aspects of Antelope Valley and how that all kind 14 of plays in together. 15 In terms of the Antelope Valley, is there something 16 that would be described as a watershed in the Antelope 17 Valley? 18 A. It wouldn't be a valley. There would be a 19 watershed somewhere. 20 Q. What is a watershed? 21 A. Watershed -- I will give you a textbook 22 definition -- is geographic area countered by, I will 23 say, topographic divides, such that water which falls on 24 one side of that divide and ends up within, I will call 25 it, a definable area. Everything within that line would 71 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 be considered within the watershed. Water falls on that 2 side, stays in. 3 Q. You are talking about rainwater? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. If rainwater comes down, it's an area where 6 water on one side would go one way and water on the 7 other side would go the other way? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is that usually a high point somewhere? 10 A. Obviously, yes. 11 Q. It would be like the mountain, mountain tops? 12 A. Ridges, yeah. 13 Q. That watershed, is that something that can 14 actually be surveyed? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And, in fact, are those watersheds surveyed? 17 A. I think no, not surveyed in the sense of a 18 legal description, but they are mapped. 19 Q. They could be surveyed -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- if you want to do that? 22 In terms of the watershed, does that act as a 23 collection mechanism for a particular geographic area -- 24 collection mechanism for water? 25 A. Yes, that would be the case, yes. 72 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. If you are on one side, let's say, of a high 2 point, like a mountain, and water falls, the idea is 3 that if it falls on this side of the mountain, it goes 4 down this direction, on the other side of the mountain, 5 it goes down the other direction? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. When water falls, how does that work in terms 8 of collecting the water from a hydrologic perspective? 9 A. I don't understand what you mean, "how does 10 that work." How does what work? 11 Q. Water gradually migrates to other locations 12 from the tops of the mountains? 13 A. Sometimes not so gradually. It flows, uh-huh. 14 Q. And how -- 15 A. Flows or infiltrates. 16 Q. When you are talking about flow, would that be 17 the same thing as surface water? 18 A. That would be a piece of flow, yes. 19 Q. And if it infiltrates, then it's -- What would 20 be the term you would use for water that infiltrates? 21 A. Ground water. 22 Q. Ground water? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. In terms of surface flow versus ground water, 25 is ground water -- is there some kind of way to chart 73 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 that out, you know, how you have a topographic map, 2 measured mountains, mountain ranges of ground 3 structures? Right? 4 A. Topographic map is a map of surface features of 5 the ground, yes. 6 Q. Is there any way to map ground-water levels? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What kind of map do you call that? 9 A. Well, the most common one is contours of the 10 equal ground-water elevation, which would be analogous 11 to contours of the ground surface elevations. From 12 those contours, we can figure out the direction of 13 ground-water flow. 14 Q. Actually, ground-water flow is underground the 15 same way or similarly to the way mountain ranges run, 16 for example, up and down. It's not level? 17 A. Again, I can't think as to any place where 18 ground water is flat level. It usually has a slope and 19 is flowing, yes. 20 Q. Let's say we are talking about a mountain range 21 which trails off into the valley. 22 What is the general configuration of the 23 ground-water contour in that kind of an area? 24 A. Where? In the mountain or in the valley? 25 Q. From the mountains, kind of moving down into 74 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 the valley. 2 A. Well, in general -- although it's not studied 3 in great detail in the mountains, but in general, you 4 can expect that the ground water, whatever environment 5 it's in the subsurface, it's flowing downhill in the 6 general same direction as the land surface. 7 Q. Would it be true that the -- Is there a name 8 for this contour under -- of the water level? 9 A. It's what I just called it, contours of the 10 equal ground-water elevation. 11 Q. Do the contours of ground-water elevation 12 follow generally the topography on the surface? 13 A. Don't know. I mean, that's subject to field 14 investigation. But as a starting premise, you know, you 15 would expect that they would generally follow that. 16 But it's subject to subsurface formations, man's 17 activities, whether he is extracting any a long way down 18 the hill. 19 Q. If they are extracting any along the downhill 20 surface, it could change that ground-water contour? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. When rainfall falls on the mountain, you talked 23 about either having surface water or ground water. 24 In terms of ground water, there is a certain amount 25 of the water that infiltrates the ground, that falls 75 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 from the rain -- 2 A. Is that a question? 3 Q. -- is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And so that means there is ground water in the 6 mountain itself? 7 A. Can be, yeah. 8 Q. Otherwise you wouldn't have trees growing, 9 bushes growing, grass growing, that sort of thing on the 10 mountain? 11 A. Strictly speaking, the soil moisture that would 12 support plant life up there would be considered ground 13 water, whether it's saturated in forms. The kinds of 14 conditions that would allow you to map the contours of 15 equal ground elevation that I talked about is a whole 16 other subject. There can be water in the subsurface 17 that support vegetation in the soil profile. 18 Q. And different kinds of plants take different 19 kinds of -- different amounts of water. For example, if 20 you have trees, you have roots that go down on trees 21 along further than you do on just a surface grass, for 22 example. 23 A. General rule, that's correct, yes. 24 Q. And if you have springs and mountains, too, 25 that's ground water coming up from -- from out of the 76 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 mountain, out of the ground-water source of the 2 mountain? 3 A. From springs are evidence of a natural 4 discharge of ground water from a formation that contains 5 ground water. 6 Q. You talked about there being differential 7 saturation levels -- 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. -- true? 10 A. I refer to soil moisture, yes. 11 Q. It's different like levels of soil moistures 12 are different levels of moist saturation in the soil? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. That's why we have different vegetations in 15 different zones, so to speak? 16 A. That's not why we have different types of 17 vegetation, but ultimately plays into that. 18 Q. Some plants need more water than others? 19 A. That has to do with thickness, not about 20 necessarily the degree of saturation. 21 Q. Thickness before you get to water? 22 A. Thickness of soil that can hold water, that a 23 plant can extract. 24 Q. Are there areas in the mountains that are fully 25 saturated, that are -- 77 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. DUNN: Objection; vague as to location. 2 MR. ZIMMER: 3 Q. -- located in the mountain? 4 MR. DUNN: Which mountains are we talking about? 5 MR. ZIMMER: Any mountain, just generally right 6 now. 7 Q. Mountains are areas where it's flow saturated, 8 where there are pools of water within the mountain 9 itself? 10 A. What do you mean by a pool of water? 11 Q. Well, any size pool of water where there is 12 fully saturated? 13 A. Well -- 14 Q. You will have to help me. You are using the 15 term. 16 A. I will not help you. You will have to ask the 17 questions. There is no -- With fair exceptions, there 18 is no such thing as a, quotes, "pool of water," unquote, 19 in the subsurface. 20 Ground water accumulates in the subsurface. As it 21 passes through the root zone usually in an unsaturated 22 condition, meaning it's not fully saturated, it may 23 accumulate in a geologic formation at some depth below 24 the ground surface to where it fully saturates, doesn't 25 make it a pool. 78 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 There are still grains -- still grains of or 2 fractures of -- in the subsurface that allow it to 3 accumulate to a fully saturated condition. 4 And those kinds of conditions can occur in 5 mountainous regions as well as they can in valley-type 6 regions. 7 To answer your question, there are places where 8 ground water accumulates to full saturation in 9 mountainous ranges. 10 Q. "Full saturation" would have been the better 11 term to use? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Okay. 14 What affects the movement of ground water in its 15 path from a mountain down into a valley? 16 Would the correct term for the movement be 17 migration? 18 A. Movement is fine. 19 Q. Movement is fine? 20 A. What affects it, combination of the hydraulic 21 characteristics of the earth materials in which it 22 accumulates, the slope of the ground-water surface, and 23 the cross-sectional area through which flow can take 24 place. 25 Q. When you say the hydraulic characteristics of 79 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 the material through which it is flowing, can you tell 2 me what you mean by that? 3 A. Well, earth materials have, say, openings in 4 most cases that allow ground water to flow through them. 5 And as a function of how well they allow water to 6 transmit or don't, they are measured by their -- deemed 7 to have a certain -- sometimes called permeability, 8 sometimes called hydraulic conductivity, which is a 9 measure of the ease of which an earth material will 10 allow water to flow. 11 Q. Is it generally true that this area in the 12 mountains, this watershed area, particularly the area in 13 the mountains itself -- is it true that that area 14 collects the vast majority of the water that ultimately 15 makes its way down into the valley and into a 16 hydrogeologic basin? 17 A. I would say generally, probably no. 18 Q. And is it true that it rains a lot more in the 19 mountains than it does in the valley? 20 A. Where? 21 Q. Just generally speaking. 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. When you say, "Generally, no," why do you say 24 that? 25 A. Well, the majority of the indent precipitation 80 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 in mountainous regions, I think in general, runs off as 2 compared to infiltrates. And so it has an easier path 3 to each -- what you call a hydrologic formation or 4 something like that. 5 In the valley, it has a better ability to reach 6 that by flowing over top of the ground surface, than it 7 does to infiltrate in the mountains and flow underground 8 to the valley flow. 9 Q. You agree with the concept, generally, the 10 rainfall in the mountains is much heavier? 11 A. I don't know. You would have to look at local 12 hydrology and whatever place we have in question to 13 answer that question. 14 To my knowledge, I don't think there is a general 15 answer to that. 16 Q. Do you know, in the Antelope Valley, whether 17 there is more precipitation -- 18 A. I haven't looked at that. 19 Q. -- when in the mountains versus the valley? 20 A. Haven't looked at that. 21 Q. You did say that you think there is a greater 22 percentage of water that makes its way down into the 23 valley by way of runoff as opposed to movement of ground 24 water? 25 A. In general, yes. 81 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. Are there any studies that show that? When you 2 say that, what could I look at that would give me that 3 information? 4 A. I would probably look at texts on hydrology in 5 general, to start with, if I were you. 6 Q. Are there any that come to mind that would tell 7 us that there would be more runoff as opposed to 8 ground-water movement? 9 A. Not by title, no. I have a collection of them 10 on a bookshelf in my office, but I don't remember their 11 names. 12 Q. You said that the hydraulic characteristics of 13 the material would affect -- would be one of the three 14 factors of hydraulic characteristics of the material, 15 the slope and the cross section in terms of the 16 hydraulic characteristics of the material. 17 Can you give me some examples of different types of 18 material in the hydraulic characteristics. 19 A. You mean of earth materials? 20 Q. Right. 21 A. Well, earth materials range from, I will say, 22 consolidated materials known in general as rocks. Some 23 geologists would refer to all the materials as rocks of 24 some form, but they are consolidated and they have, in 25 general, relatively low porosity, space in which water 82 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 can accumulate and permeability, which is the ability to 2 allow water to transmit those materials, all the way up 3 through finer grade, unconsolidated materials such as 4 clays and silts to sands and gravels, which, in the best 5 cases, as far as flow is concerned, are largely 6 unconsolidated and have varying degrees of pore space, 7 P-O-R-E, and permeability or hydraulic conductivity that 8 will allow water to accumulate in varying amounts and to 9 flow at faster rates. 10 Q. So is this kind of on the spectrum from 11 consolidated materials which might be deemed to have a 12 low porosity versus unconsolidated materials which would 13 have a much higher porosity? The flow is going to be 14 kind of a continuum from lower flow to more flow in 15 terms of ground-water movement? 16 A. Well, porosity and flow don't necessarily go 17 hand in hand. They are not, you know -- Hydraulic 18 conductivity is not directly related to pore space. 19 Pore space does have something ultimately to do with how 20 much water can be stored in subsurface materials but 21 does not necessarily affect how fast it will flow in and 22 out of that storage space. 23 Q. Would it be fair to say it's one factor in how 24 fast water would flow or move? 25 A. What's it -- 83 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. The porosity. 2 A. No, it wouldn't be fair to say that. 3 Q. When you are talking about the hydraulic 4 characteristics of the material, what is it in the 5 consolidated materials that causes the ground water to 6 move more slowly at a lower rate than in the -- 7 A. Well -- 8 Q. -- less consolidated materials? 9 A. In real general terms, the fact that the earth 10 materials are highly consolidated, the types you are 11 talking about, means that there are either no openings 12 or very small openings through which flow can take 13 place. 14 And so with those kind of space openings, there is 15 a low hydraulic conductivity, a low permeability, and 16 flow is impeded from flowing at a fast rate. In 17 general, almost -- Well, just that. 18 Q. Okay. 19 So everything is permeable to some degree. It's 20 just a question of how much in forming nature, let's 21 say. 22 A. Practically, yes. 23 Q. In this particular case, what is the watershed 24 area that surrounds the Antelope Valley? 25 A. I don't know from memory. Probably looked at a 84 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 map that shows it, but I didn't do any study of it. 2 Q. You had a map attached to your report? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Do you have a copy of that with you? 5 A. Yeah, I do. 6 MR. DUNN: Copy of the map or copy of the report? 7 MR. ZIMMER: I never did get a copy of the map. 8 THE WITNESS: To answer your question, yes, I do. 9 MR. ZIMMER: 10 Q. Sir, would that map show us the watershed? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Doesn't show us the watershed at all? 13 A. Wasn't intended to, and I don't think it does, 14 no. 15 Q. Do you have any general understanding of the 16 watershed area for the Antelope Valley? 17 A. What do you mean by "general"? 18 Q. Do you have any kind of understanding of the 19 watershed at the Antelope Valley? 20 A. I know that there is one. I didn't come here 21 today to answer questions about it because I didn't take 22 it into account in what I'm here to talk about, which is 23 ground-water basin. 24 Q. For purposes of your analysis, you are not 25 taking into account the watershed area at all? 85 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. In terms of defining what the boundaries of the 2 ground-water basin are, I did not consider what the 3 boundaries of the watershed are or are not, for that 4 matter. 5 Q. Have you looked at any diagrams regarding the 6 watershed area? 7 A. I'm sure I have. 8 Q. Do you have any recollection, as you sit here 9 right now, what the watershed area is? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Would you agree with the general proposition 12 that pumping outside of the watershed area would not 13 affect pumping inside the watershed area? 14 A. General proposition, yes, I would. 15 You are talking about pumping ground water? 16 Q. Yes. 17 Why is that, sir? 18 A. Why is that? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Well, in general -- Well, let me ask you a 21 question, if I can. 22 Have you read my report? 23 Q. I may not be able to answer it. 24 A. Have you read my report? 25 Q. Yes, I have, briefly. 86 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. All right. 2 So, then, hopefully you already understand that, 3 you know, I considered, I will call it, a broad range of 4 factors that can be utilized to define the limits of the 5 ground-water basin ultimately landed on, with a couple 6 of minor exceptions, in this setting. 7 The fact that, for practical purposes, the 8 boundaries that have historically been mapped and that 9 we have mapped reflect flows to no-flow boundaries, 10 which means that flow does not significantly occur 11 across those boundaries, and hand in hand then 12 recognizing that the watershed is bigger than the 13 ground-water basin and that, the way you asked it, 14 pumping impacts in another basin which then has similar 15 type of quote, unquote, "practically no-flow 16 boundaries," the effects of pumping in one basin will 17 not propagate across the boundary, across the watershed 18 and across then another boundary to affect ground water 19 in the other basin. 20 Q. So the watershed itself would be a no-flow 21 area? 22 A. I guess it would be hypothetically possible to 23 figure out a situation where ground water might flow, 24 you know, across a watershed boundary in some set of 25 conditions where the subsurface allowed that. 87 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 In general, it's considered that that doesn't take 2 place. 3 So to basically sit here and say that a watershed 4 is automatically a no-flow boundary above ground or 5 below ground is probably the case. There might be one 6 out there where it's not the case. 7 Q. In other words, at the watershed line, you have 8 got a probably no-flow boundary? 9 A. On the ground surface? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In terms of the line that you have discussed in 13 your report, you have some movement of ground water. 14 You are saying it's a small amount. 15 A. Goes back to what you said earlier about, you 16 know, nothing in nature is completely impermeable. 17 There can be some small amounts of flow across what's 18 generally mapped as a ground-water basin boundary. 19 While it's appropriate to take into account in 20 analyzing conditions in the ground-water basin, the 21 amounts of flow across such a boundary, which are 22 usually quite small, for practical purposes, do not 23 propagate across the boundaries, and the flow component 24 is pretty small. 25 Q. Did the watershed area -- Is that sometimes 88 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 known as a hydrologic basin as opposed to a 2 hydrogeologic basin? 3 A. I would say I guess. I'm not sure about that. 4 Q. Would you agree that the vast amount of the 5 water that makes its way into what you have defined in 6 your report as the ground-water basin comes from the 7 entire watershed area, whether it's by runoff or 8 ground-water movement? 9 A. We're talking about the Antelope Valley now? 10 Q. That's fine. 11 A. I'm not sure. 12 Before the importation of supplemental water, I'm 13 sure that was a true statement. I'm not sure about the 14 volumes of imported water that are delivered to that 15 valley right now. I've got to hang up on the quote, 16 "vast majority," unquote. 17 But depending on the relative amounts of 18 precipitation, runoff, infiltration of water that gets 19 to the subsurface, versus the amount of state water 20 that's brought in today, then one could be the vast 21 majority versus the other. I'm not sure of the volumes. 22 Q. Would you agree that the water that is making 23 its way into the ground-water basin, as you define it in 24 your report, is coming either from the watershed, entire 25 watershed, and by either runover migration of ground 89 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 water and from the deportation of water? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You have told us that you have not included the 4 watershed in your evaluation. 5 My question is, what is the furthermost out 6 geographic point or points that you have evaluated for 7 the purpose of coming up with your opinions? 8 If you follow my question. If not, I can rephrase 9 it. 10 A. Why don't you. 11 Q. I'm trying to find out -- Here is the Antelope 12 Valley, where the card is (indicating). 13 A. Business card. 14 Q. And you have this line that you have identified 15 in your report. 16 What I'm trying to find out is how far out from 17 that line, what's the furthermost out geographic point 18 all the way around this Antelope Valley that you have 19 evaluated for purposes of coming up with your opinions? 20 A. Oh, I would say to about where the basin 21 boundary line is drawn, plus a small amount. 22 Q. When you say "where the basin boundary line is 23 drawn," you are talking about in your report? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Hydrogeologic boundary line? 90 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Ground-water basin boundary line. 2 Q. Plus or minus a small amount, what does that 3 mean? 4 A. Well, our approach, when we were asked the 5 question what is the Antelope Valley ground-water basin, 6 was to look and see if anybody else has answered that 7 question before, which I think it developed in a 8 technical preliminary we wrote. 9 And to start with, you know, what criteria might 10 one use to define the ground-water basin, and then look 11 at the historical literature to see if anybody had 12 mapped a basin on those criteria or any others. And 13 such as we get into my approach or opinions or 14 conclusions or whatever. 15 If the historical investigations utilized, I will 16 say, the correct criteria for determining the limits of 17 the ground-water basin, then as far as I was concerned, 18 the basin has been well defined and ought to go forward 19 from there. 20 And there is not much to talk about. That's where 21 I landed. It turns out that starting with the first -- 22 not literally calling it the Antelope Valley 23 ground-water basin but effectively describing what we 24 call the Antelope Valley ground-water basin, the 25 investigator for the U.S. Geologic Survey mapped it and 91 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 described it, as we have, there have been some slight 2 refinements of those boundaries with time. And that's 3 over nominally 35 years or thereabouts. 4 But given that fact and that geologic mapping bears 5 out the definition of how he drew the outermost boundary 6 around what we're calling subunits or subbasins -- I 7 forget which, if not both terms that are used -- there 8 is no need to go out and look at great distances beyond 9 that. 10 Q. If I understand what you are saying correctly, 11 you have relied on what USGS mapping has been done in 12 the past in terms of coming up with this line. 13 A. Well, relied on, yes. Reviewed and agreed 14 with, I think, is probably a better way to say it. 15 Q. Going back to my early question, you haven't 16 gone beyond those lines that have been mapped previously 17 to look at the actual geographic structures and evaluate 18 them in some way in terms of coming up with your 19 opinions? 20 A. It wouldn't be geographic structures. It would 21 be geologic structures. 22 We did look at geologic mapping to look at the 23 extent of mappable basement complex type units, and we 24 also looked at mapping of faults by others to conclude 25 that those were about as mapped in the '60s, and that 92 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 would be consistent with geologic mapping to the current 2 level of mapping accuracy today. 3 In doing that, we looked beyond just where a lining 4 was to see what's mapped on the other side of the line 5 to determine that it is where quote, unquote, "it should 6 be." 7 Q. In terms of the area that you have -- 8 furthermost out area that you have looked at, when you 9 say it's this lining (indicating) that these various 10 studies have plotted, that's basically the furthermost 11 out area that you evaluate. 12 A. I just said no. I looked beyond those to see 13 what was mapped on the other side. 14 Q. What studies did you look at in terms of what 15 was on the other side? 16 A. The geologic mapping in the area. It's not 17 studies as much as it is mapping. 18 Q. Why don't we do this. Let's take the various 19 areas, working our way all the way around the Antelope 20 Valley, and just kind of telling me what you know, what 21 you relied on in terms of coming up with the line that 22 you identified in your report. 23 Maybe we can start on the west side and -- or 24 whatever. You can start where you want. Just let me 25 know where it is. 93 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. I will just keep a couple pages of what you 2 wrote into this record, or you can just refer to it. I 3 mean, I described it about as succinctly as I possibly 4 can. 5 In 1967, Bloyd, who was the author of the USGS 6 report, which is entitled "Water Resources of the 7 Antelope Valley East Kern Water Agency Area, 8 California." 9 Q. All right. 10 That was one source that you -- 11 A. That's the first mapping. And he described and 12 mapped eight subbasins. And I think he also used 13 subunits in the Antelope Valley. 14 Q. Let me ask you this first: What was the 15 purpose of that Bloyd study being done? 16 When you refer to asking, maybe we can identify it. 17 That way, we will no for the record what you are 18 referring to. 19 A. I'm referring to the Bloyd report, which I just 20 said. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. The purpose of the investigation was to provide 23 AVEK, A-V-E-K, all capital letters, which is an 24 abbreviation for Antelope Valley East Kern Water Agency, 25 with a qualitative analysis of the local ground-water 94 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 basins and to assist in planning the conjunctive use of 2 local and imported water. 3 Scope of the investigation included assembling and 4 updating basic well data; 5 Compilation of a geologic map of the area in 6 sufficient detail to show the principal geologic units 7 of hydrologic importance; 8 Delineation and description of the physical 9 structure, boundaries, subdivisions of the ground-water 10 basin and subunits; 11 Identification of natural ground-water recharge 12 areas and areas suitable for artificial ground-water 13 recharge; 14 A qualitative description of the aquifer system as 15 related to source, occurrence, movement and subsurface 16 inflow and outflow of ground water; 17 An estimate of the surface runoff and an appraisal 18 of the need for additional climatologic or hydrologic 19 data; 20 The determination, where possible, of coefficients 21 of aquifer transmissibility. 22 Q. Just for the record, what section of the report 23 were you reading there? 24 A. Its introduction. 25 Q. How did you implement this Bloyd study in terms 95 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 of coming up with your opinions in this case? 2 A. Bloyd, as I said, was investigating the 3 Antelope Valley East Kern Water Agency area. So he 4 ultimately mapped a total of 14, I think, subbasins. 5 Eight in the Antelope Valley and six in the adjacent 6 Fremont Valley. 7 All of those, I think, within the Antelope Valley 8 East Kern Water Agency area. And he described each of 9 those subbasins in some detail in his report. 10 And so that's, I think, the answer to your question 11 of how I relied on Bloyd to start with historical 12 mapping of ground-water basin and subbasins in the 13 Antelope Valley. 14 Q. Now, if I understand you correctly, you didn't 15 go back and redo all this data that had been done by 16 Bloyd; correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Just relied on whatever you found in the 19 report? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In terms of an area for this litigation, did 22 you implement the Bloyd study in some way in trying to 23 come up with an outermost line that would mark the area 24 of this litigation? 25 A. Well, I don't know what you mean by the, quote, 96 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 "area of this litigation," unquote. 2 I got asked one question, what is -- if it's 3 possible to define the Antelope Valley ground-water 4 basin. 5 And I didn't take into account anybody's land 6 ownership, water rights issues, anything else that might 7 be going on in this basin. I just looked at geologic 8 and hydrologic features to try to define whether or not, 9 I will call it, a boundary can be drawn around a 10 ground-water basin, in this case called the Antelope 11 Valley ground-water basin. 12 Q. What you were asked to do was plot a 13 hydrogeologic ground-water basin; is that -- 14 A. Well -- 15 Q. -- accurate? 16 A. I don't know about the adjective 17 "hydrogeologic." 18 A ground-water basin, yes. 19 Q. We talked about a watershed or a hydrologic 20 basin. Hydrogeologic basin is water solely underground. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. I mean, what you were asked to do was draw some 23 kind of a line for a -- 24 A. Around a ground-water basin, yeah. 25 Yeah, there is nothing magical around the 97 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 ground-water basin that says that hydrogeology didn't 2 play a role. 3 We talked about, in response to your questions, the 4 fact that nothing in nature is quote, unquote, 5 "practically, totally impermeable." 6 That can be hydrogeologic factors, some of which I 7 discussed in the response to some of your questions. 8 That can come into play. 9 So to just say that there is something that's 10 uniquely, quote, "hydrogeologic," unquote, about a 11 ground-water basin suggesting that hydrogeology has 12 nothing to do with water outside the ground basin would 13 be misleading. 14 Q. Did Bloyd separate out the Fremont area as a 15 separate ground-water basin? 16 A. To the best of my recollection, Bloyd never 17 called the Antelope Valley ground-water basin, the 18 Antelope Valley ground-water basin and never called the 19 Fremont area a Fremont water basin or anything like 20 that. He stuck with the description, again, I think it 21 was either subunit or subbasin. That was his term. 22 But I think I point this out in my report. 23 Practically speaking, the line that would go around the 24 eight subbasins in the Antelope Valley, given how he 25 described the fault system that separates it from the 98 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Fremont, I will say to the north in that location would 2 suggest that he was describing an Antelope Valley 3 ground-water basin and a Fremont ground-water basin. 4 I don't think he ever actually used those terms. 5 It was later that subsequent investigators referred to 6 them that way. 7 Q. Regardless of the name, did he separate those 8 two areas? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And did -- 11 A. I think so. 12 Q. Do you know why he did that? 13 A. I think largely because of practical no-flow 14 conditions across Cottonwood/Willow Springs with a 15 little bit of the Randsburg/Mojave Fault connecting 16 those, Cottonwood and Willow Springs, sometimes called 17 Rosamond, R-O-S-A-M-O-N-D, Fault. 18 Q. Was there nonetheless surface water exchanged 19 between those two areas? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. So you took the Bloyd report, you looked at it, 22 and did you come up with a line, or did you simply use 23 the line from Bloyd in terms of coming up with this line 24 that constitutes what you described in your report as 25 the ground-water basin? 99 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. We mapped Bloyd's line, and then we mapped the 2 subsequent work that we found by others that would 3 shrink the basin a little bit based on I think what was 4 reported to be a mixture of geophysical exploration and, 5 I think, some either mapping or borehole logging along 6 parts of the outermost part of a couple of the 7 subbasins. 8 Subsequent investigators, seems to me in the '90s, 9 suggested that the basin boundary was a little smaller 10 in the northeast and east, so we mapped that as well. 11 And then the part that's largely ignored in the 12 literature is in the far southeastern corner of the 13 basin, the -- I will call it the connection or the 14 disconnection between the Antelope Valley and the 15 El Mirage area to the immediate east, southeast, there 16 is -- at least I have never seen -- a hard-line map that 17 said this is the edge of the basin. 18 And there has been suggestion, but it seems again 19 to have been largely not focused on the literature, that 20 says that there is a ground-water divide across a narrow 21 neck at the southeastern corner of the basin that is 22 considered, practically speaking, to be the end of the 23 Antelope and the beginning of the El Mirage basins. 24 Q. When you are talking about a ground-water 25 divide, is that similar to a mountain range divide, 100 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 except it follows the water contour rather than 2 topographic contour? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. The theory is the same as would be on a 5 mountain range? You are on the top of the mountain, 6 water goes one way versus the other, depending which 7 side it falls on? 8 A. In this case, "fall" isn't it good word -- 9 Q. Move? 10 A. -- on which side it occurs. 11 And yes, that is correct. The difference between 12 the two is that the time frame that we typically deal 13 with, in our lifetime or study period, the mountain 14 range or the crest line doesn't move very much. But man 15 can cause a ground-water divide to move by pumping 16 activities or his recharge activities. 17 Q. In the same way that the ground-water basin 18 line, as you have drawn in your report, can move? 19 A. Well, what do you mean, in the same way that 20 the ground-water basin line that I have drawn? 21 Q. The ground-water basin line you draw can move. 22 It's not a fixed -- it's not a fixed line. 23 A. The only part of it that can "move" -- quote, 24 unquote -- is the part I just described, where a 25 hydraulic feature, in this case, a ground-water divide, 101 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 was chosen as an arbitrary boundary in the, we will call 2 it, small southeast corner. 3 The rest of it is all -- The rest of the boundary 4 is all either faults or bedrock, contacts, which 5 generally are considered to not move very much. Be 6 active in the sense they are faults, but they don't 7 move. 8 Q. Wouldn't move with a changing water table 9 level? 10 A. If it's a bedrock contact, the water could be 11 miles from there. 12 Q. You are not talking about the saturation point, 13 consolidated, you are talking about consolidated versus 14 unconsolidated, the places they meet? 15 A. As one of the boundary criteria, yes. And 16 discusses the fact that one of the possible criteria for 17 picking, you know, the edge of a basin is the limit of 18 its zone saturation. 19 It's a moving target or potentially a moving 20 target. The amount of water in storage goes up or down. 21 The boundary of the basin can move. 22 In general terms, in earth science, the limit of 23 the zone of saturation is referred to as the 24 ground-water body. The limit of the materials that will 25 hold ground water is called the ground-water basin. And 102 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 then the limit where water falls on the ground surface 2 and is confined within a geographic area is called the 3 watershed. 4 Q. The area that you have mapped is the area where 5 consolidated materials meet unconsolidated, not 6 necessarily the line where saturated meets unsaturated? 7 A. In most of the basin -- Well, I better not say 8 that. In part of the basin, that's correct. 9 And then the line also reflects fault traces, which 10 are not necessarily where consolidated and 11 unconsolidated materials meet. 12 Q. We can go in more detail in a minute. 13 You brought up about boring. We are talking about 14 different boring. 15 Are there some areas of the country or world where 16 they bore into mountains to get ground water out? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Going back to my question about the mapping, 19 what I'm trying to figure out is you looked at Bloyd and 20 you are saying you mapped what Bloyd had done. 21 Had Bloyd already mapped it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Are you saying you remapped it? 24 A. Well, we don't call it redraw, Bloyd's mapping 25 and that of others or those of others since. 103 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. You took Bloyd's mapping, and then you put it 2 on your own map. And then you added other mapping as 3 well to your map? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And in terms of what you put on your map from 6 Bloyd's map, was it the same or were there any 7 differences between what you put down on your map versus 8 Bloyd's map? 9 A. If you purely overlaid them, they would not 10 look perfectly identical. But practically speaking, 11 they are. 12 And the differences would have to do simply with 13 when we mapped what Bloyd mapped but also described -- 14 we mapped it at where the geologic contacts were mapped 15 in a geology -- surface geology map. 16 And I suspect -- I don't have any way of knowing 17 for sure -- when Bloyd did his mapping, he didn't have 18 exactly the same geology map. 19 So if you looked at ours perfectly superimposed on 20 his, they would not precisely line up. But in terms of 21 what he was mapping as what you described and what we 22 were mapping as what he described, they would be the 23 same thing. 24 MR. ZIMMER: Does anybody remember at the last 25 deposition whether we attached a copy of 104 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Mr. Scalmanini's report? 2 MR. SHEAHAN: Did we attach the map? 3 MR. JOYCE: As part of the report? 4 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we get your map out there 5 and take a look at it. 6 Do you remember what the identification number or 7 letter was? 8 MR. JOYCE: Actually part of the report, which is 9 Exhibit B. 10 MR. ZIMMER: Exhibit B. 11 Q. Let's take a look at your map, sir, and maybe 12 we can see if there is a difference. 13 A. You can't tell from that map. 14 Q. Let's face you. It will be better. 15 Now, is the map that we're looking at now, entitled 16 "Antelope Valley Ground-Water Basin and Subbasins" -- is 17 this the map that you mapped? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And on your legend, you have a red line that 20 says, "Basin boundary Bloyd, 1967" -- 21 MR. DUNN: Is that a question? 22 MR. ZIMMER: 23 Q. -- correct? 24 A. Uh-huh. Yes. 25 Q. Does that mean that this is intended to portray 105 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 the exact line that Bloyd had on his study of 1967 all 2 the way around here following the red line? 3 A. It's -- It's a map of what he described as the 4 edge of the eight subbasins that were included inside 5 the red line. 6 Q. If we start over here (indicating) on the west 7 side of the Antelope Valley where the sharp point is at 8 T9N and T8N -- We're here (indicating). See where we're 9 talking about? 10 A. I know where you are. 11 Q. And we have the line starting out there. There 12 is a section of that line that does not have any dashes 13 or dots in it. 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. What is the significance of that? 16 A. (Indicating.) 17 Q. You don't need to refer to the report if you 18 don't want to. 19 A. I do want to. That's why I looked at it. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Yeah. Essentially the entire southern 22 boundary of the ground-water basin is the San Andreas 23 Fault zone, except at the far western end where the -- 24 the dots end. And that most extreme, I don't know, 25 southwestern boundary is basically the contact between 106 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 unconsolidated aquifer materials and basement complex of 2 either the San Gabriel Mountains or the Tehachapi 3 Mountains. 4 Q. So this section right here (indicating) from -- 5 it looks like it's roughly 118 -- What is it? Degrees, 6 minutes, seconds? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- 118 degrees, 42 minutes, 30 seconds, 9 starting on the very westernmost side of this map and 10 going in a southeasterly direction, there is a certain 11 section that doesn't have any dots or dashes in it. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What does that represent? 14 A. I just told you. 15 Q. You told me. You talked to me about the whole 16 southernmost -- 17 A. I just said it's the contact between 18 unconsolidated materials and the consolidated materials 19 of the San Gabriel Mountains or the Tehachapi Mountains, 20 Q. Do you know what it was -- You were relying on 21 Bloyd's description of that? 22 A. Yes, and surface mapping of the geologic change 23 between those two increments, yes. 24 Q. What surface mapping maps were you relying on? 25 A. I think Dibblee's, but I don't remember for 107 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 sure. Just a second. I'm pretty sure it was Dibblee's 2 mapping. 3 Q. And do you have a copy of that with you? 4 A. I think so. I thought I did. 5 Q. Is Dibblee's referred to in your report? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Does it have like a page number where this 8 particular concept is discussed? 9 A. It's just a map. 10 Well, I thought I grabbed it Thursday, last week, 11 but I don't find it in my collection here. 12 So to answer, the answer to the question is no. 13 Q. Did the Dibblee's map discuss the basis 14 determining that this was the line that represented 15 consolidated versus unconsolidated material? 16 A. I don't remember. The map, I don't think, 17 discusses it. I don't remember if there is any text 18 that discusses it. 19 Q. Did you, in terms of your analysis, consider 20 the extent of movement of ground water from the area to 21 the south of this line generally to the north of this 22 line, or did you assume that it was nothing? 23 A. Basically, neither. I didn't try to compute a 24 flow rate, nor did I assume that it was nothing. I 25 looked at the map. I called it interface from the end 108 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 of the unconsolidated materials in the beginning of the 2 consolidated materials. That is a legitimate boundary, 3 criteria, for drawing the edge of a ground water basin, 4 and agreed with all the previous investigators who had 5 chosen the same boundary and application. 6 Q. Are you aware of any studies which show the 7 flow rate from one side of that red line we have been 8 discussing to the other? 9 A. I think that some recent work by the USGS may 10 take that into account. Not just at that location but 11 elsewhere in the overall basin. That is to say, the 12 magnitude of subsurface flows that may be taking place 13 across any of the boundaries. 14 Q. When you say you think that may be the case, 15 what do you mean by that? 16 A. Well, the GS is in publication on a -- of a 17 report in its work to develop the numerical ground-water 18 flow model of the Antelope Valley. 19 And I would expect that in developing a 20 calibrated model of the ground-water flow system in 21 the valley, that it would account for all the 22 components of flow into or out of the ground-water 23 basin, one of which would be any boundary-type flows, 24 however small. 25 Q. That's not published yet? 109 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. That's correct. To the best of my knowledge, 2 it was supposed to be published sometime this summer. 3 Q. Are you aware of any study before the one 4 that's not published that has evaluated the flow between 5 these two areas, these two areas being the area south of 6 the red line versus north? 7 A. You are talking about in the West Antelope and 8 Finger Buttes subbasins? 9 Q. Right. 10 A. No. 11 It's possible that Durbin, D-U-R-B-I-N -- Durbin's 12 work, which followed Bloyd's, and I think they would 13 model, but I'm not sure if it was for the whole basin -- 14 would have addressed any boundary-type flows as well. 15 Q. You have not taken that into consideration in 16 your report? 17 A. No, I have, I think, made it pretty clear that, 18 you know, I went through a set of criteria as to what 19 constitutes the basis, boundaries of a ground-water 20 basin and tried to apply those. 21 I didn't compute flows. I recognize that flow can 22 and frequently does occur across very low permeability 23 boundaries that are commonly used to define ground-water 24 basins. 25 I didn't try to compute whether it was big or small 110 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 as a factor in determining whether or not a geologic 2 feature constituted the boundary of a ground-water 3 basin. 4 Later in the investigation of defining boundaries, 5 the analysts can consider whether or not there is real 6 small to no to very significant flows across the 7 boundaries as a function of, I will call it, local 8 conditions in those, in this case, consolidated 9 unconsolidated boundaries. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I didn't try to compute it. 12 Q. I think I understand. 13 A. Good. 14 Q. Has your report changed -- or your opinion 15 changed since the time you authored your report? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. 18 And I take it whatever this study that's in the 19 works is, is not in any way considered in your opinions. 20 A. I have not seen any of the product of that. I 21 just know that it exists. 22 Q. Whether it exists or doesn't exist -- Strike 23 that. 24 You are not including anything about that report or 25 opinions in that report in terms of your opinions here 111 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 today or in your report; correct? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. Have you seen a copy of the report? 4 A. I have seen a copy of what might be called the 5 final draft or maybe even a galley-type version of it. 6 Q. Have you ever talked to the USGS about that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Let me clarify. When I say I have seen it, it was 9 about as far away from me as the other end of the table. 10 And it was in a binder. I saw it. I never had the 11 cover open in front of me or anything else. 12 Q. That's not what I was thinking about when I 13 said had you seen it. 14 A. I expected that was the case. 15 Q. You saw it from afar? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you ever reviewed this draft USGS report? 18 A. No. 19 It's not available for review by anybody save 20 Los Angeles County, which was the cooperating entity in 21 funding the work. 22 Q. Okay. 23 Have you ever talked to the USGS about this study? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. On how many different occasions? 112 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Once. 2 Q. What was the purpose of that contact? 3 A. So that I would be aware of the work that they 4 were doing for the county and have been doing, I guess, 5 quite some years now in this basin. 6 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why they 7 are doing it? 8 A. Let me say as a preface so you understand, the 9 meeting with them I'm talking about took place after 10 this, our work was prepared. 11 And I think that the purpose -- Well, I think the 12 purpose -- purposes are probably multiple. The one I 13 remember was that the county is interested in knowing 14 whether or not there is some opportunities to make use 15 of ground-water storage space in the valley, which has 16 been well recognized, just hasn't been created over -- 17 say, in the last 50 years. 18 And so it was and has been working with the GS to 19 look at units to call it, to improve storage, and to, I 20 don't know, sustain yield of the ground-water basin. 21 Q. How does this study that's in draft by the USGS 22 differ from what's been done in the past? 23 A. Differ in what respect? 24 Q. I don't know. I haven't seen it. I haven't 25 heard about it. 113 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Neither have I. 2 Q. Basically, your conversation with the USGS, 3 what is your understanding how the scope of this USGS 4 study differs from what's been done in the past? 5 A. Well, I just described what I think is a 6 primary purpose of their work. And the difference would 7 be that that kind of work has not been done in the past, 8 in particular with the, I will call it, type of 9 sophisticated tool that someone would call a numerical 10 ground-water flow model. 11 So they have developed this tool as -- or I should 12 say they developed this model as a tool to be able to, I 13 guess, basically, say, ask and answer questions about 14 how the basin would respond to a range of conditions, 15 whether those be water demand, water supply, 16 precipitation and runoff, or lack thereof, during wet 17 periods and dry periods, imported water availability and 18 delivery of that, and return flows from it to the 19 ground-water basin. 20 How would the basin respond to those types of 21 conditions, and how might it respond if water could be 22 specifically identified to purposely be recharged into 23 an aquifer system. 24 Q. Part of that study is dealing with the flow 25 rates across these lines that we were talking about 114 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 earlier? 2 A. Is that a question? 3 Q. Yes. 4 Is that correct. 5 A. We didn't go into that level of detail. I 6 speculated a while ago that I would expect that 7 calibrated numerical ground-water flow model would take 8 into account all components of flow, including any that 9 are thought or estimated to occur across what are 10 generally considered to be low permeability boundaries. 11 Q. Consolidated versus unconsolidated or fault 12 lines or whatever? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. On the dots on the diagram there, down here 15 where the black line is, there is a long black line that 16 says, "Fault," and it has a comma. 17 Is that intended to mean that faults on the diagram 18 are a solid black line? 19 A. They have been mapped in this valley on a 20 number of bases. And in part, investigators, I think 21 beginning with Bloyd and continuing to the present, have 22 postulated some faults where they weren't, you know, 23 clearly mapped or mappable in the field, to be present 24 because of significant ground-water level elevation 25 differences on opposite sides of what turns out to be a 115 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 line. 2 And so we have tried to perpetuate the mapping by 3 others who have looked at such conditions and where they 4 can't otherwise explain as significant in this case, 5 water level difference. 6 They have postulated that there is a fault present 7 that has caused water to be dammed up on one side and 8 significantly lower on the other. 9 Q. I guess what I'm getting to, you notice here as 10 we leave that section that we're talking about, that's 11 completely red with no black marks in it? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And as we're moving in an easterly direction, 14 you see there is a black, black and then dot, dots, 15 dash, dot, dot, dot, dash, dot, dash. 16 There is an area down here where it says, 17 "San Andreas Fault zone." You have probably two long 18 inch-and-a-quarter solid black lines. 19 I'm trying to figure out on your detail over here 20 (indicating) what the difference is. 21 A. It's basically from other mapping where the 22 fault was, I will call it, clearly mapped. Then it's 23 solid and then -- 24 Q. That's the solid, that's the fault? 25 A. Yes. 116 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. There is a comma. 2 A. Where approximately located it's dashed and 3 where postulated from the water level differences, for 4 example, that I just mentioned, then it's dotted. 5 Q. The area where there is a solid line, that's 6 where they believe there is a fault? 7 A. Where they have -- 8 Q. Concluded there is a fault? 9 A. Yeah, or mapped it with some certainty. 10 Q. And then the dash line is for where they think 11 it is approximately located? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And the dotted line, they are postulating that 14 it's there? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Did your mapping of the way you have this set 17 up here in terms of dash lines versus the dotted lines 18 change from the Bloyd study, or is that where you were 19 taking it from? Or were you taking it from somewhere 20 else? 21 A. I think I have already answered that. 22 The red line reflects what Bloyd described as, in 23 this case, the outermost boundaries of the collection of 24 subbasins that he described in some detail in the 25 Antelope Valley. 117 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. I guess my question is whether you have made 2 the dotted lines or the solid black lines in the same 3 locations that Bloyd did. 4 A. I don't remember whether that's come from Bloyd 5 or others that have been doing mapping. For example, 6 Dibblee. 7 We have picked up on other mapping of faults, did 8 not do any fieldwork to identify fault zones or to say 9 that we think they are in a different place than where 10 they are, they have been mapped previously, and where 11 they were postulated or faults, and we followed that. 12 We didn't do -- call it new and original field geologic 13 work. 14 Q. When you are talking about a "fault," what does 15 that mean? 16 A. Well, basically, I am not a geologist myself. 17 I'm not sure I will give a very good textbook 18 definition. 19 Q. What does it mean to you? We will try that. 20 A. It means an area or a location where there has 21 been significant movement in some direction of earth 22 materials on one side relative to the earth materials on 23 the other side. 24 Q. Now, when you are -- in your idea of a fault, 25 we're not actually talking about a line on the map, are 118 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 we? We're talking about something that's more than 2 6 inches wide; right? 3 A. In general, yes. 4 Q. This particular case, do you know how wide the 5 fault area is, let's say, on this southern end of your 6 diagram here (indicating)? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you have any kind of approximation at all 9 whether it's 10 yards or more like a mile or -- 10 A. No. 11 I think the -- the maps intended to reflect, I will 12 call it, the inside edge relative to the ground-water 13 basin. What might be a fault zone could be a few feet 14 to quite wide, you know, sometimes to determine rift 15 zone or fault zone as compared to a fault if it's a 16 really unique line. 17 But since, for ground-water basin purposes, you 18 know, investigators have been historically entrusted in, 19 I will call it, the side that contains the significant 20 amount of the ground water and is developable as 21 resource, the line reflects, I will call it, the inside 22 edge, and the thickness going away from the inside edge 23 is of not a lot of significance in terms of just 24 defining the ground-water basin materials and their 25 extent. 119 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. In terms of what you described as the inside 2 edge, it's not really a sharp edge; right? 3 A. Well, practically speaking, it can be 4 considered to be a sharp edge. If you locate it in the 5 field, it will have a sharp edge. 6 You go on one side, and you probably can't develop 7 significant water supply. You go to the other side, 8 there is a possibility you can, depending whether it's 9 saturated and vertical, the line is. 10 Q. When you say you can't develop a significant 11 water supply, are there wells on the south side of the 12 San Andreas Fault? 13 A. I'm sure there are. 14 Q. That means that you can develop a well supply 15 there? 16 A. You can if certain geologic materials are 17 present there, yes. 18 Whether or not they are part of the groundwork 19 basin is a whole other subject. It's possible to 20 develop a water supply of some significance, depending 21 on your use, outside of ground-water basins. 22 Q. And these two, are they tectonic plates? 23 Tectonic plates, is that what you have? Movement of 24 tectonic plates that causes movement of a fault? 25 A. What's a tectonic plate? 120 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. I don't know, but I heard the term before. 2 A. I just thought I would see if you had some 3 idea. 4 Q. I think it's two land masses moving against 5 each other. Isn't that the general idea? 6 A. That's good enough for this discussion, yeah. 7 Q. I guess what I'm saying, this is not a sharp 8 line like a surgeon going in with a scalpel saying, "We 9 will cut this first." 10 Doesn't it cause fracturing of the ground on both 11 sides of where the plates were moving? 12 A. There can be fractures in the ground, yes. 13 Q. And does the fracturing of the ground affect 14 ground-water movement? 15 A. It can. 16 Q. In other words, more fractures, the easier for 17 ground water to permeate through that? 18 A. Depending what is on the other side of that 19 zone, yes, it's possible. 20 Q. Have you looked at any aerial photographs to 21 study the fault line in the actual location of the fault 22 line? 23 A. That's a good question. I don't remember. 24 I think we looked at some -- at some fault lines, 25 but I had the staff geologist do that. I didn't do it. 121 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 I flew over it myself, didn't take any photographs. 2 And there are, you know, some observable features, 3 let's call it. You can see in places the evidence of 4 where ground water has been developed, toward the edges. 5 And you can see, obviously, that it hasn't been in terms 6 of the land use that would result from developing the 7 ground-water supply. 8 But I don't remember spending much, if any, time 9 looking at air photographs. 10 Q. Is it your understanding, as to the fault line, 11 that the fault line would be the line between the two 12 moving land masses? 13 A. Say again, please. 14 Q. Is it your understanding that this line that's 15 intended to be the fault line, where it's located would 16 be the line between the two moving land masses? 17 A. Basically, yeah. 18 Q. As we move southeast from this area where you 19 have the two solid lines, it says, "San Andreas Fault." 20 We have a long section here (indicating) of postulated 21 fault line all the way down to the -- roughly the 22 right-hand corner of your mapping here (indicating); 23 correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And I assume you haven't looked at any 122 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 particular studies to determine where this fault line is 2 or what makes it up geographically. 3 A. Well, I think I have already answered, you 4 know. We looked at surface geologic mapping, and we 5 have looked at a series of reports that come forth from 6 the '60s. In time, all of which have located the 7 southern boundary starting with the concept of multiple 8 subbasins which collectively could be considered a 9 ground-water basin. It's all mapped, that outermost 10 boundary line, as basically shown in red there 11 (indicating). 12 Q. That's what you are relying on as what somebody 13 else mapped? You haven't actually studied -- 14 A. I have already answered that. 15 We didn't do any new, original or other fieldwork 16 you know. I took basic criteria that one would use to 17 define what a ground-water basin is and to see if those 18 have been applied by others before us. 19 The answer was yes, brought it forward in time. No 20 reason to change it. 21 Q. I guess to make it simple, you have taken all 22 these other studies and put what you wanted from those 23 studies onto your single map. 24 A. Well, I don't know about what I wanted. 25 Basically, the question was, "Can you draw the 123 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 outermost boundaries of the Antelope Valley ground 2 basin?" 3 The answer is yes. 4 Q. You told me you changed the things from other 5 people's studies on your map. 6 A. I told you if you perfectly overlay on the same 7 scale what Bloyd mapped in the '60s, what we mapped in 8 the year 2001 or -2, they would not perfectly 9 superimpose. They would be very, very close. 10 I told you that our map reflects as, to the best of 11 our skills, an exact depiction what Bloyd described as 12 the ground-water basin boundaries. In that sense, while 13 they might not perfectly overlie to the same scale, they 14 are mapping exactly the same thing. 15 Q. That was your intent, to map the same thing? 16 A. That is exactly right. The only change 17 reflected are the dashed lines up here in the northeast 18 side where investigators at the GS in the '90s shrunk 19 the boundaries because they referred to -- There is no 20 report, just a map. 21 And there is like a paragraph or a sentence 22 description. Says, "Surface geophysical work," or I 23 think, "Mapping of geologic features." 24 Or subsurface exploration suggested that the 25 boundaries weren't as big as had been mapped in the 124 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 '60s. We reflected that. 2 Q. On the southern line here, following generally 3 what's been described as the San Andreas Fault, does the 4 geologic position of the ground change along this fault 5 line? 6 A. Along the fault line -- 7 Q. Right. 8 A. -- or across the fault line? 9 Q. Across the fault line. 10 A. I sure hope so. 11 Q. From what to what? 12 A. Changes from -- I'm not sure what's on the 13 other side of the fault zone, but it is -- 14 Q. When you say "the other side," the southern 15 side? 16 A. Outside or south side. 17 But in general, there is a collection of alluvial 18 material and continental deposits on the inside of the 19 basin side of the line that are considered to be 20 water-bearing and water-yielding. 21 Q. Does that change, and is the other side less 22 water-bearing material? 23 A. In general, one would expect, I will say, in 24 fault zones and in mountainous materials -- which are in 25 this case the San Gabriel Mountains on the south side -- 125 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 one would expect to find, in general, smaller 2 water-bearing and lower water-yielding subsurface 3 materials. 4 Q. My question -- 5 A. There can be exceptions as a function of local 6 fracturing, small mountainous valleys that may contain 7 local alluvial-type materials or unconsolidated 8 materials that can provide yield to wells. But in 9 general, when you go to mountainous areas, you find 10 lower water-bearing and lower water-yielding materials. 11 Q. It's not a straight line. You have pockets 12 that kind of follow the mountains along. And you may 13 have alluvial material that makes a pencil, like coming 14 off this main line as you go down the edge of this 15 mountain range. 16 A. Well, in this case, the mountain range isn't a 17 factor because the fault line is mapped as the boundary, 18 that is, I will say, a little more linear in feature 19 than the ins and outs of small, local alluvial valleys 20 that might occur in other parts, like contact in the 21 bedrock material and in the alluvial materials in other 22 parts of this basin. 23 But those kind of features, I will call it, 24 drainages that occur across faults or bedrock contacts 25 in general do occur at the edge of -- I don't know about 126 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 absolutely every, but certainty most ground-water 2 basins. 3 Q. In terms of the material that you are dealing 4 with on the inside versus the outside of this line that 5 you have drawn, does that, does that change in any way 6 as we move from west to east along the fault and/or 7 postulated fault? 8 A. Does what change? 9 Q. Does the type of material on one side, inside 10 versus outside, along that -- along that line -- 11 A. Are you talking about around all the 12 boundaries? 13 Q. Talking about -- 14 A. Southern boundaries? 15 Q. Southern boundaries, from this point we started 16 talking about. 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. On the west side down to the east side, we had 19 this whole line that runs along the southern edge of 20 this area that you have outlined? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. In other words, from inside to outside, all the 23 way along this, does the geologic material involved 24 change? 25 A. I haven't studied it in sufficient detail to 127 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 answer it absolutely does or absolutely does not. 2 There is occurrences of ground water up in this 3 Leona Valley isolated from the main part of the basin. 4 I understand that there is sufficient thickness in 5 aquifer material that a water supply can be developed 6 from ground water. But it's on, you know -- we will 7 call it unique to that valley, up outside the main 8 ground-water basin. 9 Q. Have you studied the Leona Valley area to 10 determine why that is? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you studied any other area along this 13 southern edge of the ground-water basin, as you 14 described it, to determine what the actual geologic 15 composition is on the inside versus the outside? 16 A. A little bit as part of some other work in the 17 West Antelope subbasin, which is the one you have been 18 pointing at some here in the far western end of the 19 overall ground-water basin. 20 I have looked a little bit at some work for, you 21 know, depth to ground water, and welling yields for 22 historical agricultural supply at that far western end. 23 Q. Not for purposes of this lawsuit? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. If my understanding is correct, you have made 128 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 the assumption, for purposes of drawing the line that 2 you have drawn, that there is low permeability to the 3 extent that's not relevant to your opinions in this 4 case -- 5 A. There is -- 6 Q. -- on the outside versus the inside of the 7 line. 8 A. Well, I just said that, you know, there is 9 probably local exceptions, that I use the Leona Valley 10 as an exception of that. 11 I haven't studied the well yields. I understand 12 that there is a municipal supply, ground-water supply, 13 so -- but I haven't studied the details of that. 14 Q. You haven't studied the details of it anywhere 15 along this southern edge of what you have described as 16 the ground-water basin? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. You mentioned earlier in your testimony that 19 there has been a lack of -- I may not use the exact 20 words you used, but to me it sounds like you were saying 21 there was a lack of study or mapping of the southeastern 22 portion of the Antelope Valley. 23 Is that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What do you mean by that? 129 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Well, in some cases, the mapping just stops to 2 the southeast and there is no resolution of how the 3 basin or the subbasins are closed in at the extreme 4 southeast corner. 5 And so, you know, I say in -- I guess in the purest 6 sense, the ground-water basin has bounds all the way 7 around it. 8 We have paid a little attention to -- with how 9 people have dealt with the conditions over this, 10 whatever it is, half-mile to a mile wide little neck 11 that connects the Antelope Valley with the -- 12 El Mirage's drainage area to the east -- east, 13 southeast. 14 I can't tell you from reviewing the literature as 15 to why it just stopped, other than possibly a lack of 16 any kind of focus out there in terms of issues in the 17 past. 18 Q. Part of the studies is kind of what the reason 19 you are doing this study is for. If it doesn't affect 20 the reason you are doing the study, they may not go that 21 far and examine that. 22 A. That's correct. 23 You asked me about Bloyd's objectives in the '60s. 24 The objectives, in general, have followed a similar 25 thing over time. 130 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 There was a massive amount of ground water pumped 2 out here. Again, 50 years ago, there was a substantial 3 lowering of ground-water levels. 4 There has been an imported supply to attempt to do 5 something about that. And there have been questions 6 about how to use the ground-water basin. 7 The majority of that, if not all of it, for all 8 practical purposes, has not been near the southeast 9 corner where this valley is connected to the El Mirage 10 area to the southeast. 11 Yeah, basically, the focus has been, I will say, to 12 the greater central and northeast and western parts of 13 this Antelope Valley and not to this southeast neck. 14 Q. In terms of the southeast neck you are talking 15 about, is there some way for you to tell me how far down 16 there was a study, and if so, what study that was? 17 A. Study of what? 18 Q. Well, the Bloyd study, how far did that go? 19 A. I think we have captured Bloyd by the extent of 20 the red lines. He mapped out here to about the -- oh, 21 close to the eastern end of Township 4 and 5 north and 22 the Range 8 west. 23 Q. What is this (indicating)? That would be the 24 area where the red line stops -- 25 A. Right. 131 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. -- and this purple line begins? 2 A. Right, right. 3 Q. What does that purple line represent? 4 A. Well, there have been -- we tried to do it with 5 just notes on the map. 6 There have been efforts by some recently to 7 literally show a ground-water basin boundary, you know, 8 other GS investigators. 9 But notably, Carlson and Phillips in '98 drew the 10 lines shown in purple to, I will call it, complete the 11 depiction of the eastern edge or southeastern edge of 12 the butte subbasin, and the southern at the extreme 13 eastern end of the Pearland basin and the line between 14 those two. 15 Pearland. Same as the fruit, "pear" with "land." 16 And then there is not a lot of water level control 17 as far as I can tell from -- define the exact location 18 of this divide between the ground water on the Antelope 19 Valley side and on the El Mirage side. 20 What we have reflected here is where the drainage 21 basin or what you might have referred to as the 22 watershed earlier -- where that's physically located at 23 the far southeastern corner. 24 Q. And you were pointing to the blue dashed line 25 as the -- 132 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Boundary of the drainage basin in that local 2 location. 3 Q. Do you know what factual criteria or testing 4 criteria that Carlson relied on to map this purple line 5 that you were just describing? 6 A. Not from memory, I don't, no. 7 (Interruption in proceedings.) 8 MR. DUNN: I have about 11:45. Do you want to take 9 a lunch break? 10 MR. JOYCE: That's fine. 11 MR. ZIMMER: That's fine. 12 MR. JOYCE: That works for me. 13 MR. DUNN: Be back at 12:45? 14 MR. ZIMMER: 12:45. That's fine. 15 MR. JOYCE: That's good. 16 (A lunch recess is taken.) 17 MR. ZIMMER: 18 Q. Mr. Scalmanini, before the lunch break you said 19 you were not a geologist. 20 Are you a licensed geophysicist? 21 A. No. 22 Q. In terms of the criteria you used, you said 23 earlier that you determined criteria -- I think this is 24 what you said -- you determine criteria, you compare 25 that criteria to what other people had used. 133 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. I applied criteria. 2 Q. What was the criteria you determined that you 3 would use for purposes of defining what you have 4 described as the ground-water basin in your report? 5 A. Just what it says in my report. 6 Q. To summarize that, what the criteria was? 7 A. I listed several categories of criteria that 8 might be used to define lateral and vertical boundaries 9 of the ground-water basin. 10 Q. That's on page 2 -- 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. -- going on to page 3? 13 A. Right. 14 Do you want me to say them? 15 Q. And did you, in fact, apply those criteria or 16 do you apply criteria by either Bloyd or Carlson? 17 A. Bloyd or Carlson didn't list them in this 18 manner. 19 Q. But they applied? 20 A. Some of these as well, and I agree with what 21 they did. 22 Q. In the Bloyd and Carlson studies, they didn't 23 set out specifically their criteria? 24 A. I didn't go about answering specific questions. 25 What is the Antelope Valley ground-water basin? How 134 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 would you define the limits of a ground-water basin? 2 How do those criteria apply or not apply in this 3 particular geologic and hydrogeologic setting? 4 They just described it in -- Specifically, Bloyd 5 described, as I have said several times here today, a 6 collection of subbasins or subunits which when taken in 7 aggregate form at a ground-water basin. 8 Q. In terms of the first portion of this line 9 extending from west to east on the southernmost portion 10 of what you have set forth as the ground-water basin -- 11 And I need to lay some foundation for that. 12 In terms of this map, who actually drew this map? 13 Because I keep saying you. I'm not sure you actually 14 drew it. 15 A. I didn't draw it. A draftsman by the name of 16 David Tag drew it. 17 Q. Did you give Mr. Tag some kind of documents 18 from which to draw it, or did he rely on his own 19 experience in doing that? 20 A. He is a draftsperson that -- in concert with a 21 geologist named Scott Hughly, who also works for me as 22 does Tag, we collectively gave him or worked with him in 23 developing the base map on which these lines are drawn, 24 surface geology map and, I will say, hand-drew the lines 25 that you see here now to follow certain features. 135 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 And then the draftsperson put that -- I think this 2 was done in AutoCAD -- I will say into a computer for 3 lack of a better term, so that we could produce maps 4 like this. So that a machine could draw them is the 5 best way to say it. 6 Q. In terms of your involvement -- I'm trying to 7 figure out what your involvement was as compared to the 8 staff -- did you actually give the draftsperson the 9 information from which to draft the line, or was that 10 done by this other individual? 11 A. It was both of us. 12 Q. Do you know what information was given to the 13 draftsperson, what specific information? 14 A. I don't remember the exact chronology of pieces 15 of paper that got from the geology map to this basically 16 topographically-based map, to get the lines from the 17 geology map, which is where we first drew them to this 18 (indicating). 19 But at the point where we were satisfied that we 20 had drawn these lines relative to the geologic features 21 which are the basis for where the lines are located, we 22 then, if you will, had the draftsperson transpose that 23 from the geology base to this base. 24 Q. In other words, was the draftsperson given a 25 copy of the Bloyd study, Carlson study? 136 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. No, he didn't -- he didn't do any 2 interpretation in that regard. Whether he looked at 3 Bloyd's mapping, I don't honestly remember. 4 Q. Who would have been the person who did the 5 interpretation from the Bloyd map or the Carlson map? 6 I assume that someone took the Bloyd map and 7 Carlson map and interpreted it and drew out something 8 and gave that to the draftsperson. 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Who would have been the person that interpreted 11 it? 12 A. Hughly and I did it. 13 Q. Was there one person -- 14 A. We didn't break it into portions. 15 Q. Did you do it first, and then have him do it? 16 Or did he do it, and you reviewed it? Or how did that 17 happen? 18 A. We worked, I will call it, in a manner of, I 19 will call it, progressive interaction. 20 He did some work chasing counsel references -- he 21 had a personal library of some of the materials -- 22 before we even went to other sources. And he provided 23 some first-level review of that for me. 24 Then we talked about how, I will call it, subbasins 25 and subunits could be collectively considered to be an 137 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 overall ground-water basin, which the original 2 investigator didn't conclude. 3 And then he looked at, for example, Bloyd's mapping 4 vis-a-vis Dibblee's mapping and suggested that what 5 Bloyd mapped wasn't exactly the same as where the 6 geologic context would be mapped. That's what I 7 described earlier today. I reviewed that with him. 8 And we talked about, I will call it, various of the 9 details that we have talked about today. Everything 10 from the evolving of names of faults, i.e., the Willow 11 Springs Fault, also called Rosamond Fault. 12 Talked about a fair amount of the detail, even 13 though it's kind of insignificant, in the far 14 southeastern corner that you spent some time on this 15 morning. 16 We talked about how we would graphically illustrate 17 the aquifer systems located within the basin. And I 18 will say we both drew sketches, evolving to more precise 19 drawings with time. 20 Q. Have you been involved in the preparation of 21 this sufficiently, in your mind, that you can say that 22 it's accurate as far as what these other studies show, 23 except to the extent that you indicate that it is 24 slightly different than Bloyd or Carlson or whatever? 25 A. As far as I'm concerned, as accurately as we 138 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 can transpose the geology map to a topographic map, 2 reflect the geologic context or geologic features or 3 other features like this ground-water divide or basin 4 divide at the southeastern corner, their location, 5 relative to the features that you see on here, yes. 6 Q. In terms of that first section of the 7 southernmost line of what you described as the basin 8 boundary, I think you indicated that the geologic 9 criteria that you employed to set the location of that 10 line was based on consolidated versus unconsolidated. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Where the fault line begins with the dotted 13 black lines on this southern line, all the way down to 14 the corner, southeast corner, the criteria there was the 15 fault line alone? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. In terms of this black dashed line which 18 deviates from the red line, in a normal direction, kind 19 of a little peninsula that goes to the north off the red 20 line -- 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- is that from Carlson? 23 A. I don't remember. 24 Q. Do you know why the -- Do you have the red line 25 running in a more linear fashion as opposed to the black 139 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 dashed line? 2 A. Yeah, I take it back. I do remember. 3 That was one of the places -- What's shown on here 4 where the black dashed line does reflect work from 5 Carlson and others in '98, this was where, I think, some 6 of either the surface geophysical work or the subsurface 7 exploration suggested that there was consolidated 8 material which you might call a nose that juts out into 9 the basin. 10 So that's what -- along with the other places that 11 I referred to in the northeastern portion of the basin, 12 that was mapped by Carlson and others in the late '90s. 13 Q. So for purposes of your opinion, are you saying 14 that the basin boundaries, as you have described it in 15 your report, is this red line or black dashed line down 16 here just northeast of the Leona Valley? Or do you not 17 know one way or the other? 18 A. I basically don't know specifically one way or 19 the other, that if what Carlson says -- Carlson 20 describes that with a sentence on a map and doesn't 21 discuss any of the details of the subsurface exploration 22 or surface exploration that supports it, there or 23 elsewhere. 24 Q. So a lot of these studies, they don't have 25 necessarily the detail you would need to be able to 140 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 determine that? 2 A. That's definitely the case with Carlson. 3 And, you know, arguably is, you know, true with 4 Bloyd also in that there is not, in any of the 5 literature that I have seen, detailed analysis to, let's 6 say, go to the level of detail that you have been, you 7 know, asking about here today. It would be a very, very 8 precise location. 9 Q. As we go southeast, we run into an area that's 10 just below where Palmdale is written on the map. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. There is a little jog there. 13 What is the geologic criteria that's being employed 14 there to make that particular jog? 15 A. The way it's reported is, there is -- I think 16 inferred fault is the way we mapped it. And that's 17 what's been reported, that there are, or were in the 18 '60s, apparently significant water level differences 19 across this fault unnamed. 20 Q. Just for the record, when you say "across this 21 fault" -- 22 A. Between the buttes and Lancaster subbasins. 23 Q. There is a green dotted line -- 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. -- correct? 141 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that's a postulated fault? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. You are saying there was a difference in -- 5 A. I told you earlier today that there were a 6 number of places in this overall valley where 7 significant water-level differences were reported, 8 across short differences, and the investigators have 9 postulated the faults were responsible for those. 10 Q. Are there other reasons that they postulated 11 faults in addition to different water levels? 12 A. I don't remember there being any. They 13 specifically mention that. I could go back and look, 14 but that's what I remember. 15 Q. When you say "inferred fault," is that in your 16 mind the same thing as a postulated fault? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Down here in the north or southeast corner, 19 kind of where we left off right before the break, the 20 red line where this postulated fault stops, and then 21 there is a purple line. 22 What criteria was this purple line based on that 23 extends from where the red line stops? 24 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. 25 Q. The blue line you told us was the -- that at 142 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 least it's that portion right there, the edges of the 2 watershed? 3 A. That's correct. 4 And I described it, and Carlson and Phillips drew 5 the purple lines this morning. And I don't remember the 6 criteria or their description. 7 Q. And do you have any particular criteria, as far 8 as you have, why you have these on here through your 9 office, other than the fact that they are described by 10 Carlson? 11 A. I didn't write them down. I don't remember. 12 Really want to dig through the literature and see if I 13 can figure it out. 14 Q. In the area around this purple line from the 15 point where it continues from the southernmost red line 16 of this what you are describing as the basin boundary 17 around the watershed area, the blue lines and going 18 north to where it again connects with the red line, do 19 you know the geologic materials that are on one side of 20 this line versus on the other side? 21 A. Not from memory, I don't know. 22 Q. In terms of your report, do you have any other 23 written materials regarding this case, other than the 24 report itself? 25 A. You mean anything, anything else that we have 143 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 written? 2 Q. Yes, sir. 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you have any notes, drafts or the underlying 5 supportive data for the report? 6 A. I looked for the geology map. I think I had 7 Dibblee's original or a copy of it in my collection of 8 stuff, and I guess I didn't. 9 But the -- we did some marking up of a surface 10 geology map, which for reasons that escape me, isn't in 11 the file. But that would have been a working draft. 12 Everything else in the way of, I don't know, 13 sketches or things like that, where we might have been, 14 you know, speculating about, for example, what the 15 geology looks like in the subsurface across this 16 cross section, AA primed, or A apostrophe, that we 17 didn't keep. 18 Q. In terms of the Dibblee study, that's what you 19 relied on in terms of the geologic structures for 20 purposes of determining the location of the fault? 21 A. Not the structures but just basically the 22 surface geology, where certain materials end and other 23 materials begin. 24 Q. In other words, you used the Dibblee study to 25 determine the location of the southern edge of what's 144 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 described as the ground-water basin, the area described 2 as the San Andreas Fault? 3 A. I think so. I don't remember specifically, but 4 I think so. 5 Q. Why would you do that? Because that's more 6 accurate in terms of a geologic study than a 7 ground-water study in terms of geologic structures? 8 A. Oh, man. Let me bite my tongue for a second. 9 It's not a study. It's a map. Okay? And it's not 10 based on hydrogeologic structures. 11 I must have told you 15 times so far today, it's on 12 the surface. One formation is mappable up to some 13 feature, like a fault or bedrock on the other side, some 14 other feature that's what's reflected here. 15 Dibblee didn't do studies. Dibblee did maps. He 16 mapped geology on the ground surface and published 17 several maps of surface geology in California. 18 Q. I don't understand this the same way you do. 19 I'm trying to figure out, from a practical standpoint, 20 why you and your office have drawn this line here in the 21 location that it is. 22 A. Because it's where the fault is mapped -- I 23 have answered that -- basin, the materials are on the 24 inland or basin side of that and other materials on the 25 other side of that. 145 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. And that determination is made on Bloyd or 2 Dibblee? 3 A. Bloyd description and Dibblee's mapping. 4 Q. Okay. 5 Okay. Over here (indicating), on going back to the 6 southeast corner, you have drawn the red line that 7 extends from the purple line. This would be on the east 8 side, what you have described as the basin. And then it 9 picks up from purple to red. 10 Do you see where I'm talking about? 11 A. Yeah. That's backwards to that 12 chronologically, but go ahead. 13 Q. There is also a black dotted line in the 14 southeast corner also. 15 Is that again Carlson? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And where have you and your office determined 18 this basin boundary, as you describe it, is located, 19 would it be on the black dotted line that extends from 20 the red line on the south to the red line on the east, 21 or would it be from on the line of -- the purple line 22 extending out to the watershed and then up in a northern 23 direction, back up to the red line? 24 A. It's difficult to say with finality where we -- 25 where we would, quote, "draw" the basin boundary line 146 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 down there. 2 Q. You don't know? 3 A. If what Carlson reports as a basis for drawing 4 the dashed line as, you know, an extension of the end of 5 Bloyd's mapping and description, which is the end of the 6 red line, if that's correct, and it's also correct in 7 this nose south of Palmdale and this nose southwest of 8 Lancaster and in the area immediately east of Rosamond 9 Lake and on the eastern side of the basin on the east 10 side of Rogers Lake, if all that geophysical work and 11 subsurface work or other mapping that was done that 12 again is described in like sentence or a paragraph is 13 correct, then the basin boundary would be as shown with 14 the black dashed line as closing in where Bloyd 15 described or mapped, or shrinking the basin where Bloyd 16 mapped it as geologic, I don't know, context. 17 Q. On this diagram, there are various locations 18 where the black dotted line does not conform to the red 19 line. 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And what you are saying, I think, if I'm 22 understanding you correctly, you don't know whether the 23 data supporting the Carlson study in that respect is 24 accurate -- 25 A. That's correct. 147 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. -- or whether the Bloyd information is correct. 2 A. That's correct also, although Bloyd reflects 3 the surface extension of unconsolidated materials, and 4 we have interpreted it. 5 And so absent the specific, I don't know, 6 geophysical or other work that Carlson refers to which 7 we couldn't find, and then absent some equivalent field 8 investigation to, in effect, change the geologic mapping 9 that's historically been done, then I would stick with 10 the Bloyd boundaries because they conform to reasonable 11 criteria. 12 So do the others, which are not mapped other than 13 just loosely drawn like you see reproduced here. 14 Q. You and your office have not actually done 15 those kind of ground studies to be able to tell which 16 was accurate, whether Bloyd or Carlson? 17 A. That's correct. That's correct. 18 Q. Over here on the east side, southeast side in 19 particular, where does the Mojave basin -- is that the 20 same as the Mirage, Mirage basin? 21 A. I think the answer is no, that there is a small 22 basin that's been mapped by the State Department of 23 Water Resources as El Mirage between Antelope and the 24 beginnings of Mojave. 25 Q. So this area up here where you have the 148 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Saddleback Buttes here -- 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- and you have the red line, is this red line 4 essentially from Bloyd? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That red line is marked to the west of this 7 area, Saddleback Buttes. 8 Are you saying this is -- What basin are you saying 9 this is, where the Saddleback buttes are? 10 A. I don't know that it's in a basin. I think 11 that that's hilly to mountainous terrain. What's 12 underneath it, from the descriptions that are included, 13 is that it's bedrock-type material, at least to the 14 immediate east of the red line. 15 Q. All right. 16 A. This part here to the east side of the 17 Lancaster basin is bedrock contact. And on the east 18 side of the butte subbasin was original mapped on the 19 differences. 20 Q. If we go back to our criteria for having this 21 line (indicating) in this position -- in other words, 22 the line that traverses from the southeast toward the 23 northwest -- what's the criteria used in marking this 24 line up, up to the point where you get to the Saddleback 25 Buttes? 149 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Just what's shown by the map, that postulated 2 fault based on water level differences, which was the 3 basis for the original map. 4 Q. As you get up to the Saddleback Buttes, as you 5 proceed north, you are saying that there is some 6 bedrock? 7 A. That's what's mapped, yes. 8 Q. Who is that mapped by? 9 A. I will say, you know, Dibblee's mapping is 10 about the same type as Bloyd. I don't know whether 11 Bloyd relied on it. 12 But anyway, everything from here (indicating) up to 13 the extreme northeast corner and around, I will call it, 14 down on the west side of the north -- of the North Muroc 15 basin and on the left side of the Rogers dry lake bed is 16 all mapped as bedrock contact. 17 Q. You are saying there is bedrock contact from 18 just south -- starting on the red line, just south of 19 Saddleback Buttes? 20 A. No, I didn't say that. 21 Q. I misunderstood you. Are you saying there is 22 bedrock all the way on the east side of this what you 23 described as water basin? 24 A. From the corner of -- I will call it the east 25 side of the line that separates the buttes basin from 150 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 the Lancaster subbasin, up the east side of the Antelope 2 Valley ground-water basin to its northeastern extremity 3 and around the North Muroc and Peerless subbasin, and 4 down the west side of Peerless and North Muroc and -- if 5 you move your hand, please -- along the west side of the 6 Rogers dry lake bed, and then along the north side of 7 Rosamond Lake -- Rosamond Lake over to the vicinity of 8 Rosamond is all mapped as bedrock contact. 9 Q. On the bedrock on the south, where does that 10 start? 11 A. I just told you. 12 Q. Right here (indicating)? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Just for purposes of being able to identify it 15 better on the diagram, on the east side of the line that 16 you have drawn as the basin boundaries, you describe it 17 it's dotted, indicating a postulated fault up to a 18 certain point which is just east -- just west of the 19 Saddleback Buttes; correct? 20 A. Yeah, I have already said it. You go ahead and 21 say it any way you want. I will try to agree, I guess. 22 Q. I'm trying. 23 A. I described it as from the intersection between 24 the buttes and the Lancaster subbasin at the eastern 25 boundary to the southeast of that is postulated fault. 151 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 From that point along the east side to the north, around 2 the northeast corner, down the west side of the 3 North Muroc and Peerless subbasins, along the north side 4 of Rosamond Lake is all bedrock. 5 Q. I understand you have said all that. From a 6 judge's standpoint it's a lot easier to see something 7 they can point a finger to. 8 A. I bet a judge can read a map better than you 9 can, but go ahead. 10 Q. It could be. Just to be on the safe side, the 11 area where the dots stopped is the area where you are 12 saying that the bedrock is mapped on this red line 13 (indicating), just to the west of Saddleback Buttes; 14 right? 15 A. Can you read that back, please? 16 (The record is read by the reporter.) 17 THE WITNESS: No. I said -- said just the 18 opposite. 19 MR. ZIMMER: 20 Q. Why don't you do this: Why don't you make a 21 circle where you think the bedrock starts on this. 22 MR. DUNN: This is his map. I don't think it's 23 understood we're going to use this as a deposition -- 24 THE WITNESS: I have described it about three 25 different ways. It's right there (indicating). 152 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. ZIMMER: Mr. Dunn, why don't you describe that 2 location. 3 MR. DUNN: On this map, there is a green line with 4 black dots that contacts an orangish-red line with black 5 dots on the southern side and then no dots on the 6 northern side. 7 And it connects between Alpine Butte and the 8 Saddleback Buttes and just below on the map where it 9 says Long Buttes, L-O-N-G. 10 MR. ZIMMER: Excellent word. 11 Q. You don't know what basin the Saddleback Buttes 12 are in? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. What's the next basin that you do know the 15 location of as you proceed -- 16 A. The next one? 17 Q. -- west? 18 As you proceed east, what is the next basin that we 19 mapped. 20 A. I think it's called El Mirage or -- El Mirage 21 something. 22 Q. Do you know what watershed area the Saddleback 23 Buttes is in? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Starting at the point that Mr. Dunn just 153 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 described, where the green and red lines intersect right 2 next to Saddleback Buttes and proceeding north, we have 3 now a red line which has no dots, which again goes back 4 to the Bloyd line; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I think you have indicated that on all of this 7 area as we proceed north along that red line, you are 8 indicating that the criteria for drawing that line is 9 consolidated versus unconsolidated material. 10 Would that be correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Up until the point where it meets again with a 13 dotted line just above Rosamond lake? 14 MR. DUNN: Is it dotted there? I can't tell. You 15 are right, it is dotted there. 16 MR. ZIMMER: 17 Q. Just north of the "R" on Rosamond Lake, it 18 starts with a dash and then two dots. 19 Do you see where I'm talking about? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. From the point over here next to Saddleback 22 Buttes, that Mr. Dunn identified, all the way around 23 there, you are indicating that the criteria for setting 24 that line is consolidated versus unconsolidated 25 material; correct? 154 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And then there is a large portion of black 3 dashed line that's inside the red line, and that's the 4 Carlson study that we talked about earlier? 5 A. It's a Carlson study we talked about earlier, 6 yes. 7 Q. That goes back to what we talked about earlier, 8 you can't give an opinion as to what is accurate, 9 Carlson or Bloyd, without doing a physical study of some 10 type or more extensive study to try to determine that; 11 correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know the material, geologic material 14 that is, for lack of a better word, inside versus 15 outside the red line, let's say, in the area north of 16 Saddleback Buttes, say, Township 7 north 117 degrees, 17 53 minutes, 27 seconds? 18 We have got this kind of bulge here (indicating). 19 Do you know what the material is inside versus 20 outside that area? 21 A. Inside are some -- or is some collection of 22 alluvial and continental deposits which form aquifer 23 materials. 24 And outside, I don't know the specific geologic 25 name from memory. They are consolidated bedrock 155 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 materials. 2 Q. What study or studies did you take that 3 information from? 4 A. Basically Bloyd and confirmed, I guess you 5 could say, by Carlson's work, that they didn't move the 6 boundary from where the bedrock/unconsolidated boundary 7 had previously been shown. 8 Q. As we proceed north-northeast along this red 9 line to where we get up to, let's say, Township 9 north 10 117 degrees, 40 minutes, zero seconds, out here where we 11 have this other jog in the line, changing direction of 12 the red line, do you know what the -- what's the 13 geologic composition is outside versus inside? 14 A. Same answer. 15 Q. Would that same -- Other than that, you can't 16 give me any more detail as far as what it is? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Whether or not the continental deposit extends that 19 far up, particularly if one continues up to the north, I 20 don't know from memory. But basically, you know, the 21 focus for mapping a basin was the presence of 22 unconsolidated aquifer materials on one side of a 23 boundary line versus the other. So that's my answer. 24 That's what's present in general terms. 25 Q. According to the previous studies? 156 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. You mentioned earlier this morning that there 3 was an area where you felt there was a ground-water 4 divide. 5 A. I don't know that I ever said that it was. I 6 didn't where I thought there was a ground-water divide. 7 It's been discussed. 8 Q. What is the significance of a ground-water 9 divide in the southeast portion of this, what you have 10 drawn here as a ground-water basin? 11 A. Significance is that ground water tends to flow 12 in one direction on one side of the divide and in the 13 other direction on the other side of the divide. 14 Q. Where is the divide that you believe is there? 15 A. I don't know that I have ever seen it precisely 16 located. It's generally recognized that water is 17 tending to, if you will, be at a higher elevation as one 18 proceeds to the southeast in the Pearland or buttes 19 subbasins, and then tends to be lower again on the other 20 side in the El Mirage basin. 21 And it's been, I guess you can say, expected 22 despite the lack of specific control, meaning that there 23 are few, if any, wells that will allow precise 24 measurement and location of where the divide would be. 25 But there physically has to be a changeover from sloping 157 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 up to the southeast and then a sloping down further to 2 the southeast. 3 Q. Have you seen this ground-water divide mapped 4 and/or discussed? 5 A. Seen it discussed. I don't remember if I have 6 ever seen it specifically mapped. 7 Q. Where have you seen it discussed? 8 A. I don't remember exactly, but possibly in 9 Bloyd, since Bloyd and then, we will call it, mentioned 10 since until there was some effort to try and close this 11 in. 12 And I think that Carlson and Phillips, they -- I'm 13 working from memory -- have abandoned the idea of trying 14 to map a movable boundary and pick the drainage divide 15 instead. 16 Q. So because the ground-water contour changes, 17 you are saying you can't put a precise location on it? 18 A. You can if you have enough information with 19 which to define it, but they don't. And nor does 20 anybody else, as far as I know. 21 Q. It's somewhere in the southeast portion of what 22 you have drawn here as a ground-water basin? 23 A. Yes. 24 Recognize we're talking about a pretty short area 25 that depending on where you might draw this, we're 158 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 probably talking up to a maximum of a mile-wide 2 connection between a basin that is tens of walk miles 3 wide in its central portion. 4 Q. Have you ever seen any studies or mapping that 5 show the Saddleback Buttes in a particular ground-water 6 basin as you described it in your report? 7 A. Not from memory I haven't, no. 8 Q. In terms of the report itself, who actually 9 drafted the report? 10 A. Our report? 11 Q. Yes, sir. 12 A. I wrote, I don't know, the great majority of 13 the words. And I had some staff assistance. I wrote 14 the great bulk of it. 15 Q. What was the staff assistance for? For 16 proofreading or what? 17 A. No. This would be Mr. Hughly, to whom I 18 referred to earlier, provided me some information to 19 integrate the end part, which is a discussion of this 20 schematic cross section that illustrates the makeup of 21 the aquifer system in general, I will say, across along 22 the northeast to southwest cross section through the 23 basin. 24 Q. What you are talking about is the purple line 25 that runs in a straight manner through virtually the 159 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 center of what you have described as the basin marked 2 with an "A" on either end? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. What does the "A" asterisk represent as opposed 5 to just the "A"? 6 A. Just a way of labeling the end of the line on 7 which, in this case, a geologic cross section is drawn. 8 Q. His involvement -- Mr. Hughly's involvement was 9 with reference to this cross section? 10 A. He didn't draw the cross section. The cross 11 section we extracted from the literature as 12 illustrative, and he had -- I think, as I said a little 13 while ago, had a library of -- you know, on a personal 14 collection. And so he provided me some of this by, you 15 know, extracting that for what I will call my reference. 16 Q. What literature was that cross section taken 17 from that's marked by "A"? 18 A. Sneed and Galloway, which is a report labeled 19 "Aquifer - System Compaction and Land Subsidence: 20 Measurements, Analyses, and Simulations - the Holly 21 Site Edwards Air Force Base, Antelope Valley, 22 California." 23 Q. Going back to the red line that you have drawn, 24 let's talk about this area up here by Boron, B-O-R-O-N, 25 as in Nancy. 160 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 This area where we have a change in direction of 2 the red line that's going northeast and changes to 3 northwest, in this area right here (indicating), do you 4 know what the geologic materials were inside versus 5 outside the line you have drawn? 6 A. Same answer as the last two questions of that 7 type. 8 Q. Okay. 9 Would the same be true as to the northernmost area 10 here of this red line up around Township 32 south where 11 it changes direction from northeast and curves around 12 and heads southwest? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Where it curves around the Peerless subbasin, 15 same response? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. It would be the same all the way along here on 18 the northern edge of what you have described as the 19 basin boundary up to where the dotted line starts over 20 by north of the Rosamond Lake; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you have not done any studies, nor have you 23 seen any studies that show the migration of water inside 24 versus outside the red line basically anywhere on the 25 diagram; correct? 161 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. What do you mean by "migration of water inside 2 versus outside"? 3 Q. Movement of the water. 4 A. I have seen plenty of studies regarding 5 movement of the water inside the red line. 6 Q. Outside to inside or vice versa? 7 A. I'm sure that I have seen mention of whether 8 there is some potential flow across that line. 9 Particularly where these postulated faults are, there 10 have been some discussion of that. 11 But they were -- "they" being the water-level 12 difference and the resistance to flow -- were considered 13 substantial enough by the investigator to conclude that 14 they formed a boundary, as I said several times, to a 15 subbasin, which in turn, is part of the basin. 16 Q. There was no quantification, that sort of 17 thing, on these studies? 18 A. I don't remember, but I didn't, I will call, 19 read far enough into every last one of them to tell you 20 there was none for sure. 21 Q. I understand that wasn't the scope of your 22 inquiry in this case. 23 A. That's correct. That's why I didn't read that 24 far into it. 25 Q. In the area starting up here north of Rosamond 162 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Lake, we have a postulated fault for a short distance. 2 It is dots, and then it goes into a Carlson basin 3 boundary, or is that into a -- I'm not sure what that's 4 intended to depict (indicating). 5 A. (Indicating.) That's -- 6 Q. Right here (indicating)? 7 A. -- approximately the location of the fault. 8 Q. Here where the dots are, are those a postulated 9 fault? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Then I thought we had longer lines moving down 12 to your legend. We have longer lines for the actual 13 fault and the shorter lines are dashed where 14 approximately located? 15 A. That's what I just said. 16 Q. It's postulated here (indicating), and then 17 it's dashed where it's approximately located as you are 18 proceeding along this north edge; correct? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. And then it goes into an actual map? 21 A. Mapped fault. 22 Q. Mapped -- 23 A. M-A-P-P-E-D. 24 Q. As you go from a postulated fault to a mapped 25 fault, the level of certainty as to its precise location 163 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 increases? 2 A. Well, the level of certainty of whether it 3 exists at all goes from postulated to approximately 4 located to firmly mapped. 5 Q. All right. 6 Firmly mapped means it exists, and it's only 7 postulated where the dotted lines are? 8 A. That's correct. 9 And where dashed is approximate location as 10 compared to postulated. 11 Q. Okay. 12 In terms of the criteria for drawing this line 13 (indicating) where it's dotted just to the northwest of 14 Rosamond Lake, what's the criteria there? 15 A. I don't remember for exact sure, but it's 16 generally been reported that there is some recognized 17 subsurface flow. Small but more, I will say, calculable 18 or estimable from bedrock complexes, where there aren't 19 aquifer characteristic information or a lot of 20 water-level information, some. 21 But to estimate flow, there is recognized flow 22 through or from the well from the north through, I will 23 call it, a break in the geology in the vicinity of 24 Rosamond or Rosamond Lake. 25 And I think, from memory, that that's what that is 164 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 trying to reflect there. 2 Q. In the area of postulated fault, there is some 3 flow through there? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What about as you move to the west and now we 6 have the approximate area of fault? 7 What is the criteria, geologic criteria for making 8 that dashed line at that location? 9 A. I didn't map it originally. I don't know. But 10 that's a geologist's estimate of approximately where the 11 fault is. 12 Q. Would that be again taken from Dibblee? 13 A. Pretty sure, yes. 14 Q. What about when we get into the line of fault, 15 the more solid line, what is the criteria there for the 16 drawing of that line, or do you know? 17 A. I think the same. 18 Q. Whatever Dibblee said it was? 19 A. Yeah, I think so. 20 Q. And then we start into another red section, 21 postulated fault. As we move to the west-northwest, 22 generally toward the Randsburg, R-A-N-D-S-B-U-R-G, 23 Mojave fault, M-O-J-A-V-E, fault. 24 In this red section here, as we proceed northwest 25 and then it cuts southwest, that's again a postulated 165 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 fault area (indicating); correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And do you know the criteria for drawing that 4 line, or are you simply taking that from Bloyd or 5 Dibblee? 6 A. Basically, yeah, there is a -- the mapping, I 7 think, reflects an extension of the -- it's been called 8 Rosamond and Willow Springs Fault over to the 9 Randsburg/Mojave Fault. And then the basin boundary 10 line jogs from that down along the Randsburg/Mojave 11 fault to the Cottonwood Fault. 12 Q. That's based on Bloyd and Dibblee, that section 13 of postulated fault there in the red? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And we're back into an area of approximated 16 fault for one dash and another fault -- another word 17 "fault"? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And a solid black line with "Cottonwood" 20 written over the top. That's again a fault? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That's based on Dibblee; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And do you know the criteria for drawing that 25 line? 166 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. I don't map faults, so I don't know exactly 2 what he did in the field or otherwise to draw it where 3 he did. 4 Q. Is mapping faults something more that a 5 geophysicist would do for a geologist? 6 A. Geologist more than a geophysicist, but yes. 7 Q. The last portion of this line that we haven't 8 talked about is on the northwest side of what you have 9 described as the basin. 10 Again, that consists of a solid red line proceeding 11 from the word "Cottonwood" to the point where we started 12 our discussion at Township 8 N, as in Nancy, north 118 13 degrees, 42 minutes, 30 seconds, roughly. And that 14 again is a red line taken from Bloyd? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is the criteria for the drawing of that 17 line. 18 A. Bedrock contact with alluvial materials. 19 Q. Is it the same for that entire stretch? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. The same type of alluvial materials, same type 22 of bedrock? 23 A. Basically, yes. Practically, yes. 24 MR. DUNN: It's 2:00 o'clock, close to 2:00 25 o'clock. Why don't we take a quick break. We have been 167 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 going for over an hour now. 2 MR. ZIMMER: Good breaking point. 3 (A recess is taken.) 4 (Mr. Dunn is no longer present in the deposition 5 proceedings.) 6 MR. ZIMMER: Back on the record. 7 Q. Mr. Scalmanini, as we were talking about the 8 north side of the line that you described as a basin 9 boundary in your report, you said there was an area here 10 where we have a postulated fault, and you have received 11 some information about flow over that particular area 12 from outside to inside or vice versa; correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Where did you receive that information? 15 A. It's written up somewhere in one of -- one or 16 more of the literature pieces that I reviewed, that 17 can't remember the name of the -- I don't think it's the 18 Rosamond Hill, but there is some other hill -- it starts 19 with a "T," in the immediate vicinity -- that there has 20 been -- you don't measure ground-water flow, but there 21 is sufficient flow that it can be -- I will call it 22 analyzed, as a bigger than seepage type of mound. 23 That may be in Bloyd, or it might -- I don't 24 remember exactly. 25 Q. In your discussion with the USGS, flow 168 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 characteristics of ground water in any location around 2 what you have drawn on this diagram as the ground-water 3 basin boundary, whether it's Bloyd or Carlson -- 4 A. I will say generally, we spent, you know, far 5 less time on the southeast corner than you did today, by 6 a long shot. 7 That's kind of in the noise, meaning that it's a 8 small and not very significant -- the fact that there is 9 a physical connection between the two. 10 We talked probably -- As far as flow goes, we 11 talked about real generally the fact that the boundaries 12 are basically as shown here (indicating), that in 13 modeling work or any other type of, I will call it, 14 accounting for the various inflows and outflows to a 15 ground-water basin, you can analyze and ultimately 16 adjust if necessary, if you are estimating, what those 17 kind of boundary flows are. 18 So the -- what are called nitpicking over exactly 19 where a boundary is is not that critically important. 20 And the biggest part of any flow discussion we had, 21 without getting into like flow rates, was how some of 22 the internal subbasin boundaries may or may not impede 23 flow or change with time, given that ground-water levels 24 have so dramatically fluctuated in that basin in the 25 last 50 years. 169 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. They are trying to get an idea, internal and 2 external, what the flow characteristics are, perhaps, in 3 a better way than has been done in the past? 4 A. That's fair to say. 5 Again, going back to when I talked about what some 6 of their objectives were, I think they want to have an 7 understanding if you, for example, put water into a 8 basin or take a substitute supply, meaning an imported 9 supply and change pumping patterns how the basin will 10 react to that. 11 Most importantly, if you do something to recharge 12 the basin, you have an idea where that water goes, 13 because I might want to recapture it if you made the 14 effort to put it in there. 15 Q. Does it stay inside? Does it leave? How is it 16 affected by what's coming in? 17 A. Yeah. Not to be condescending, given the 18 depression that's occurred in that basin, does it stay 19 inside is almost a no-brainer. Okay? 20 It's so depressed historically, it's hard for water 21 to flow out because it needs to be a higher level to get 22 out if it was going to get out. 23 Q. Because you have more head inside than you do 24 outside? 25 A. That's correct. 170 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 But conversely, where does it go inside is a little 2 more of significant interest. 3 Q. Did you talk to USGS about the flow 4 characteristics outside versus inside on any particular 5 locations around what you have reproduced here from 6 Bloyd or Carlson as the basin boundary. 7 A. No, I really didn't. I'm not trying to evade. 8 I didn't have any specific discussion of anything in the 9 way of what I call characteristics of, you know, 10 water-bearing or not so water-bearing materials outside 11 the basins. 12 Q. You discussed generally that they are looking 13 at that? 14 A. I think the best way I can summarize it is if 15 you look at what's mapped here (indicating) and you 16 trace 35 years, roughly speaking, of documented studies, 17 most of which have been done by the GS. 18 There is some work in the private sector. 19 Basically, the published work is done, for all practical 20 purposes, by the USGS. 21 Starting with Bloyd, there has been a perpetuation 22 of the boundary that's either shown in red on our map or 23 some in -- it's almost in passing -- I describe the 24 additions of these little things I described as noses or 25 fingers that stick out in the basins described by 171 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Carlson in the late '90s. 2 There is a map and a little bit of text that's 3 typed on the map that refers to the map that this 4 surface geophysical work or work -- that there is a 5 little change to the extent of the aquifer materials in 6 some locations the GS has perpetuated from Bloyd, 7 Durbin, Sneed, Galloway, et cetera. Those are the names 8 that come to my mind. They are all in the references, 9 perpetuated these boundaries. 10 Q. They are going further to better evaluate flow 11 characteristics? 12 A. The focus has, you know, I would say, been you 13 look at -- after Bloyd, who was also looking into the 14 future. 15 If you bring supplemental water in here, for AVEK, 16 Antelope Valley East Kern, you know, what might you do 17 with it? 18 And then Durbin was next and did a model. 19 And then there has been some recent work, 20 including analysis and a report on what the historical 21 water use has been versus time. And this work that I 22 mentioned that's, quote, "in publication," that that's 23 to look at basically all the components of flow, 24 including pumpage out and recharge and those kind of 25 things. 172 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. Over here in the northeastern side of the 2 diagram, we have a significance difference between what 3 Carlson maps and what Bloyd maps; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In this area what was the criteria that Carlson 6 used in terms of his dashed line, would that be 7 consolidated versus unconsolidated material also? 8 A. I want to say I think so. Let me look. 9 You can read it for yourself. This is the 10 discussion that I was referring to earlier, if I 11 remember right. Okay? 12 Q. And you are reading off -- 13 A. I'm reading off sheet 1 of 2 of Carlson, 14 Leighton, Phillips and Metzger, 1998, under the 15 heading "Regional water table (1996) and water-table 16 changes in the Antelope Valley ground-water basin, 17 California." 18 Under the heading of "Geohydrology" -- and the text 19 is what you see here (indicating). It's part of the 20 map. There is no reports or other bound document. 21 And in the second paragraph -- Let's see. Hold on 22 a second. Okay. The Antelope Valley drainage basin has 23 been divided into 12 ground-water subbasins. 24 Q. The drainage basins would be the equivalent of 25 a watershed? 173 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Basically, yes. 2 And that goes up to include the Antelope Valley 3 ground-water basin and the -- come on, Joe -- Fremont 4 Valley ground-water basin. So the 12 subbasins go back 5 to some of Bloyd's early work. 6 Q. Let me stop you there for a minute. 7 When you say it goes up to the Fremont, you 8 basically have yours up to the Fremont also on the north 9 edge? 10 A. Yeah, that's correct in terms of an Antelope 11 Valley ground-water basin. The drainage basin is bigger 12 than that. 13 The ground-water basin is what I have shown here. 14 And as a matter of fact, if you want to look at what 15 Carlson, et al. did, they highlighted in pink here the 16 Antelope Valley ground-water basin as defined for this 17 study. Modified from Weir, W-E-I-R, and others, 1965; 18 Bloyd, 1967; and Durbin, 1978. And it's a smoothed-off 19 version of what you see on here (indicating). In other 20 words, it's a much smaller scale. 21 Q. Let me ask you one question before you get into 22 that text. 23 In terms of the Fremont basin, where is that 24 located on this map? 25 A. To the north of the Cottonwood Fault, Willow 174 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Springs Fault, and to west of the North Muroc and 2 Peerless subbasins, which are in the northeast corner of 3 the Antelope Valley ground-water basin. 4 If I can point out, describing this would be this 5 area right here (indicating). 6 Q. Go ahead and read the text there. 7 A. Okay, okay. 8 "The Antelope Valley ground-water basin covers 9 about 920 square miles and consists of the Buttes 10 Pearland, Lancaster, Neenach, West Antelope, Finger 11 Buttes and North Muroc subbasins as defined in Durbin 12 1978. In addition, the ground-water basin boundary was 13 modified for this study on the basis of geophysical 14 evidence (Mabey)," M-A-B-E-Y, "(1960) and 15 well-construction data that indicates the presence of 16 consolidated, near-surface bedrock in the area near 17 Rogers Lake (dry) in the North Muroc and the 18 northeastern Lancaster subbasins, and in the area 19 southeast of Palmdale in the Lancaster subbasin." 20 That's the extent of the description that moves 21 from the red line to the black dashed line in the areas 22 where they depart. 23 Q. Going back to the question, the question was, 24 what criteria did he use? 25 And I assume the answer is that he used 175 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 consolidated versus unconsolidated material. 2 A. It's hard to say what he says on the basis of 3 geophysical evidence. The way it's written, I would 4 expect that's his interpretation, based on his 5 interpretation of surface geophysics, he was 6 interpreting that the bedrock was pinched in from where 7 it was mapped on the surface sufficiently in the 8 subsurface to create a boundary that's smaller than 9 originally mapped. 10 Q. You would have to go back to the Mabey study -- 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. -- to see what that said; correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Let me talk to you about your written report. 15 What kind of a report is this? It says, "Technical 16 Memorandum." 17 And refresh my memory. You are, by training, what? 18 What's your -- 19 A. I'm an engineer. 20 Q. Engineer. 21 Is this an engineering report? 22 A. If you want to call it that, that would be 23 fine. 24 Q. Do you normally sign your reports? 25 A. No. 176 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. Is there any reason for that? 2 A. I guess the best reason is I more or less never 3 have. When it's required for some investigations, the 4 licensed person or people stamp or just sign or both. 5 Then I do it. But we don't normally stamp or sign the 6 reports. 7 Q. In this report, does this report fully cover 8 the opinions that you have been asked to express in this 9 lawsuit? 10 A. Thus far, yes. 11 Q. In terms of all of the information that you 12 have reviewed for purposes of coming to the conclusions 13 and opinions you have in the report, are those fully 14 described in the list of references that appear on 15 page 12 through page 13? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Some of the stuff we have already covered. I'm 18 going through here to try to save us some time without 19 repeating things we already talked about, so bear with 20 me. 21 On page 1 -- there are no lines here -- but in the 22 second paragraph right after the Todd citation -- 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. -- it says, "In practice, the term ground-water 25 basin is loosely defined," and there is a semicolon. 177 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 What does that mean, "loosely defined"? 2 A. Well, you might be better off to ask Todd that, 3 since it's quoting him. 4 Q. Do you have any interpretation what that means? 5 A. Well -- 6 Q. What it means to you. 7 A. The best way I can answer your question, time 8 concerns notwithstanding, is to tell you that when asked 9 a similar question in another basin and then asked that 10 here, and when asked to give a talk on that subject, you 11 know, I looked in the literature. And you can go 12 through, I will call it, a ton of the technical 13 literature, and you basically can't find the term 14 "ground-water basin" almost anywhere. 15 So a couple places you find it is the, quote, from 16 Todd, which some would say it was definitive, books on 17 the subject ground-water hydrology. 18 This happens to be a quote from the second edition. 19 I think the quote is the same from the first edition 20 which was published in either 1959 or '60. 21 The subsequent edition, which is quoted here, is 22 1980, if I remember correctly. And then you can find 23 some discussion of the term in Snyder, which is cited in 24 our list of references, in turn, citing some in-house 25 Departmental Water Resources, called teaching-type 178 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 syllabus notes. That gets into the criteria that are 2 discussed in here. So -- 3 Q. So there is differing definitions of -- 4 A. Well, I wouldn't go so far to say differing 5 because you can't find very many. And as I tried to 6 develop, you keep going, you know, in reading there. 7 But it basically says that, you know, as you work 8 your way through it, they -- meaning that, you know, 9 Todd says that the ground-water basin implies an area -- 10 implies an area containing a ground-water reservoir 11 capable of furnishing a substantial water supply. 12 And then later, from those notes prepared by -- or 13 syllabus-type notes prepared by Richter, he defines a 14 ground-water basin as an area underlaying by one or more 15 permeable formations, capable of furnishing a 16 substantial water supply. 17 So you really don't find, I will call it, multiple 18 differing definitions. That's about what you find when 19 you go looking for a definition. 20 Q. Between those two definitions, they are 21 slightly different. 22 A. Well, to me, they are almost identical. They 23 may be different to you. Where one says a ground-water 24 reservoir capable of furnishing a substantial water 25 supply, and the other says one or more permeable 179 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 formations capable of furnishing a substantial water 2 supply, the difference between the two is whether or not 3 you're describing a ground-water reservoir or one or 4 more permeable formations as being the same or 5 different. 6 Q. And then up above, citing Richter, talking 7 about not only physical hydraulic boundaries but also 8 political boundaries. 9 A. Richter prepared a laundry list, which I repeat 10 on the next page, of things that might be used in 11 defining the extent of ground-water basin. 12 Q. There is a whole lot of different things. 13 A. And then Richter and I -- I repeat some of it 14 here, go through, I will call it, a disqualification of 15 a number of those factors that somebody might use but 16 probably shouldn't be used. 17 Q. In your opinion, then, Richter's opinion, some 18 of those things should not be used? 19 A. They might have been used or they might have 20 been logical to the less logical candidates for boundary 21 factors but probably shouldn't be. 22 Q. Disagreement as to exactly what should be used? 23 A. Well, again, I wouldn't go so far as to say 24 there is disagreement. It's just recognition that on 25 occasion, somebody, some investigator, might draw a 180 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 basin boundary someplace for an analytical reason. And 2 a classic illustration is the San Joaquin Valley in 3 which -- You are from Bakersfield; right? 4 Q. Yeah. 5 A. It's huge. From there to Contra Costa County 6 is a long way. And yet, you can argue that the whole 7 valley is one great big basin or that there are pieces 8 of it. 9 But in the 1970s, I think was when it was first 10 done, the legislature commissioned the State Department 11 of Water Resources to investigate ground-water basins in 12 California and to identify those that were subject to 13 so-called critical conditions of overdraft. 14 And so DWR -- that's Department of Water 15 Resources -- did that. And they conducted hearings 16 and had meetings in various places in California, as 17 they were in the process of defining ground-water 18 basins. 19 And in some cases, for what I will call political 20 reasons or almost necessity, they drew straight lines 21 across places, and -- for example, the San Joaquin 22 Valley -- and said that it's the Kern basin on one side 23 and Tulare in the next and things like that, which had 24 no foundation in science or in any of the criteria that 25 you might apply from an engineering or hydrogeologic 181 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 perspective. 2 And so Richter recognized things like that as 3 being potential political boundaries. States, counties, 4 cities, irrigation districts, things of that type. 5 But then when you read the rest of it, by which I 6 tried to briefly repeat here, they have no significance. 7 And so to draw a box in the basin like this around, say, 8 Lancaster and call it a ground-water basin would be a 9 unit that you might be able to study, but it wouldn't 10 legitimately be basin-basin, so hence, the long list and 11 then the shortening of the long list. 12 Q. Depends on what the focus of your inquiry is, 13 whether you can make some of these assumptions and draw 14 some of the lines, and they won't affect what you are 15 trying to accomplish by your inquiry? 16 A. Absolutely. I mean, taken to the extreme, you 17 know, we analyze ground water around a corner gas 18 station that has a leaky tank and figure out what's 19 going on, you know, sort of microscopically in the 20 basin. 21 We don't need to study the whole basin. We might 22 draw boundaries that are a city-block big or something 23 like that. 24 And you can answer the questions that you set out 25 to answer, you know, in a focused investigation like 182 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 that on a pretty small scale. And conversely, usually 2 when we look at ground-water basins and we are 3 interested in such things as yield and overdraft and 4 sustainability of -- sustainability of water supply, we 5 look at them, you know, at the scale of the basin on a 6 long-term basis and not at the scale of corner gas 7 station. 8 Q. Just depends what assumptions you can make to 9 get to the conclusion you need to get to, depending on 10 the focus of your inquiry? 11 A. Sometimes, you are right, it is assumptions. 12 But it seems that in the science over the last whatever, 13 30-plus years, that we're able to reduce the number of 14 assumption and increase the number of analyses, go on to 15 various things that we might not have been able to 16 analyze so readily a number of years back. 17 So -- But you are right, ultimately it's a matter 18 of getting your arms around the various components of 19 investigation at whatever scale. 20 Q. And that's currently what the USGS is trying to 21 do now, get a better feel for what's actually happening 22 out there? 23 A. No question. 24 Arguably, 30 years, plus or minus, ago we didn't do 25 numerical ground-water models. We did different types. 183 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 The tools have advanced, and they are being applied 2 here. 3 Q. Have you ever reviewed the law and 4 environmental report? 5 A. I have it. I don't know if I quite used the 6 word "review" to describe it, but I have looked through 7 it. 8 Q. Have you used any portion of that report in 9 forming any opinions or conclusions that you put in your 10 report? 11 A. No. 12 I physically acquired -- acquired it and learned of 13 its existence after we have done this. 14 Q. Is there any difference between underflow and 15 hydraulic communication? 16 A. Well, a little bit. Depends on the setting. 17 There is a kind of a whole subset of ground water that 18 deals with its legal classification in the sense of when 19 you need to have a permit from the state to appropriate 20 it or pump it. 21 And one of the reasons that falls within state 22 board jurisdiction is the so-called underflow or 23 subsurface flow of a surface watercourse. So sometimes 24 that term is uniquely used to describe that. 25 It would, in effect, be the ground water flowing in 184 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 the bed of the stream, or the surface stream, and then 2 underflow is sometimes a term used to describe 3 subsurface flow that might be moving across some 4 boundary line, which has nothing to do with legal 5 classification of ground water that I just talked about. 6 It's sometimes used to describe that. 7 Q. Boundary? What kind of boundary line? 8 A. One like we talked about here today. 9 Q. Geologic? 10 A. Geologic is fine, yeah. 11 Q. Is this depiction of what you described as a 12 ground-water basin boundary based on Bloyd or Carlson, 13 two-dimensional? 14 A. No. It is as drawn on this map. 15 But one of the reasons that we put this geologic 16 cross section is here, cross section labeled "A" -- "A" 17 apostrophe -- was to illustrate the fact that the 18 ground-water basin has a third dimension, which is depth 19 or thickness. 20 And the figure that we talked about earlier, which 21 is that cross section that's on or after page 11 in our 22 report, is -- and as discussed under the subject of 23 vertical boundaries which begins at page 10 is to 24 describe the third dimension. 25 Q. Where is that cross section taken from? 185 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. I told you earlier, from the Sneed and 2 Galloway. 3 Q. And what criteria was that based on? 4 Do you know what type of engineering studies were 5 done to come up with that, if any? 6 A. Well, from memory, I can't say. But it looks 7 like the kind of picture which, you know, people like 8 me, you know, do, which is an interpretation of geology, 9 geophysics, and lithology as described by various 10 borings that have made into the subsurface and a 11 description of the materials that are encountered down 12 to, in this case, a bedrock interface where you go out 13 of unconsolidated materials and into bedrock. 14 Q. What was the depth on that? 15 A. The maximum depth is a better part of 16 5,000 feet in the general vicinity of Lancaster. 17 And the minimum depth is probably -- Correction. 18 It's probably closer to 7,000 feet, where I just said, 19 and the minimum depth is measured, oh, in maybe a 20 few hundreds of feet near -- basically, at the boundary 21 between Lancaster and North Muroc subbasins. 22 Q. It's your understanding this was actually based 23 on borings? 24 A. A fair amount of it was, yes. 25 Q. On this line that you have drawn on Exhibit B? 186 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. Oh, it's unlikely that the borings line up 2 perfectly on that line. 3 That -- What people like us do is take available, 4 most commonly water well borings, but sometimes borings 5 in the subsurface for other purposes. And we will 6 collect that information. 7 In this case, along a general line like this 8 (indicating), there have been other cross sections 9 prepared out here. For example, there is another by 10 another investigator that was -- goes, roughly speaking, 11 at 90 degrees from this. It goes generally northwest to 12 southeast. 13 But then we will project the lithologic picture 14 from, say, both sides of that line onto a line which 15 is considered to fairly well represent the materials 16 that are encountered in the subsurface in that general 17 area. 18 But it's, for all practical purposes, never 19 uniquely located along a perfect straight line on the 20 data on which it's based. 21 Q. Depending where you are in this area, you will 22 have slightly different contours? 23 A. Of what? 24 Q. Of the ground water. 25 A. There is no ground water reflected on this. 187 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 This is just a picture of the earth materials. The 2 clay, the sands, the gravels, et cetera, that are 3 encountered from the ground surface down until you reach 4 the bottom of the aquifer system. 5 You asked me about a third dimension of the basin. 6 Third dimension of the basin in this case is basically 7 the bedrock at depth. The water that can accumulate in 8 the earth materials that will readily yield to wells is 9 typically in the unconsolidated aquifer materials that 10 are inside the basin. 11 And what this picture and others like it show is 12 what materials might you encounter at various depths, 13 starting at the ground surface and working your way 14 down. 15 And so what's -- what's shown on this one without 16 any water is basically that you would start from the 17 ground surface. 18 Depending on where you drilled, you would go 19 through what's -- names have changed a little with 20 time -- an upper aquifer, a middle aquifer and a deep 21 aquifer, which are of differing ages, basically in the 22 time when they were deposited by geological processes. 23 And then at certain places, you know, thick clays 24 that separate the upper from the middle or the lower 25 aquifers. 188 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 And then one might ultimately superimpose on this 2 where the water level is at any given time, which would 3 tell you that the aquifer might have water in it or it 4 might not. The middle aquifer might have water, it 5 might not, depending how the fluctuations have occurred 6 over time. 7 Q. The hydraulic characteristics of a confined 8 aquifer would be different from an unconfined aquifer? 9 A. Basically, that's correct, that the 10 permeability or hydraulic conductivity or 11 transmissivity, all of which related to the ability of 12 the aquifer to allow water to flow through it, don't 13 care whether or not it's confined or unconfined. But 14 the storage properties of the aquifer, which are also a 15 hydraulic characteristic, changes dramatically from 16 confined or unconfined. 17 Q. Wouldn't the conductivity change based on 18 whether it was confined or unconfined, based on the 19 pressure involved -- 20 A. No. 21 Q. -- in other words? 22 A. Conductivity is a measure of the 23 water-transmitting capacity of material. And the fact 24 that it's under more or less pressure only has something 25 to say about how much water might be moving through it. 189 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 But its intensity property is not affected by that. 2 Q. In other words, something has to move the 3 water. Either head pressure -- 4 A. It's only going to be -- Head is the only thing 5 that's going to move the water. And relative 6 differences in head, meaning the water flows from high 7 head to low head. 8 Q. In a confined aquifer, is that different than 9 it would be in an unconfined aquifer, still moves from 10 high head to low head? 11 A. The fact that it's in a confined aquifer means 12 that it has, in effect, a top on the aquifer so it can 13 occur under pressure or what appears to be pressure, 14 meaning the head rises up above the confinement, kind of 15 like drilling into a pipeline. The water will squirt up 16 to a higher elevation at the top of the pipe. 17 Q. Right. 18 A. So the same sort of phenomenon underground, but 19 the rate at which it flows is dictated by the head 20 difference from one location to another and the 21 hydraulic conductivity, permeability of the materials 22 through which it's flowing. 23 It's pretty simple, high head to low head and 24 conductivity, permeability. The terms aren't exactly 25 the same, but they are close to equal in numerical value 190 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 and then the cross-section area. 2 Q. Okay. 3 You said there was another cross section of this 4 area that you have drawn on the diagram. 5 A. I have seen one, yes. 6 Q. Who was that done by? 7 A. Oh, I don't remember. 8 How bad do you want to know? May take a while for 9 me to dig this out. 10 Q. Kind of curious as to the name of it. 11 A. It's BB primed as compared to AA primed. 12 Q. How would we go about locating that? I 13 couldn't tell A primed if I had a searchlight. 14 A. I know I have copies of it. But this is a 15 cross section. It's, you know, Figure 6 from the U.S. 16 Geological Survey. This isn't the one I'm thinking of. 17 Hang on a second. 18 Q. While you are looking for that, how many 19 different cross sections did you look at for this area 20 you have marked with the line? 21 A. In the basin, I will say two or three, maybe 22 four. 23 I just lied to you. This is actually also labeled 24 A primed, but it's from a different report. And I'm 25 pretty sure there is a BB primed that goes across it. 191 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 And there is reference to another, a CC primed and 2 DD primed, one of which runs the CC primed through the 3 Neenach subbasin, N-E-E-N-A-C-H. 4 And DD primed is up in the vicinity of -- well, 5 let's just, for right now, say North Muroc or up close 6 to there, Edwards Air Force Base. 7 Q. Just for the record, you are pulling these 8 various -- 9 A. They are Xerox copies out of reports. They are 10 duplicates to get the whole thing. But map of the 11 Antelope Valley, showing geographic setting, generalized 12 geology boundaries used in the mathematical model and 13 geologic sections through the ground-water basin. 14 MR. JOYCE: Are these from Durbin's report? 15 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. 16 MR. JOYCE: Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: Again, this is not stuff that we 18 incorporated. 19 MR. JOYCE: That looks like Durbin. 20 MR. ZIMMER: 21 Q. In terms of you are pulling this out of your 22 file -- 23 A. Out of the file. 24 Q. -- that's your file on this case? 25 A. Yes, it is. 192 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. At some point, we need to get copies of 2 everything you have in there so we can kind of look at 3 it. I wouldn't be able to decipher all the stuff you 4 have in there. I will have the experts look at it. 5 Obviously, we need to mark it. 6 Have we marked a copy of his file? 7 MR. JOYCE: Pardon me? 8 MR. ZIMMER: Have we marked a copy? 9 MR. JOYCE: I did not. 10 MR. ZIMMER: We did not? 11 MR. JOYCE: I did not. 12 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we mark next in order as 13 "C" -- 14 THE WITNESS: This sheet? 15 MR. JOYCE: "D" was the last one. 16 MR. ZIMMER: "D"? 17 MR. JOYCE: Uh-huh. 18 MR. ZIMMER: ^ This would be "E." 19 MR. JOYCE: Yes. 20 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we mark Exhibit E, a copy of 21 Mr. Scalmanini's file that he has in the expando folder. 22 And Madam Court Reporter, if you can have copies 23 made of the maps like he has three or four of them there 24 in front of him regarding cross sections, and just copy 25 them in whatever format they are in the file. 193 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. JOYCE: Rich -- 2 THE WITNESS: When are you going to do that? 3 MR. ZIMMER: That's another question. 4 MR. JOYCE: I was going to suggest -- 5 (A discussion is held off the record.) 6 MR. ZIMMER: Let's go through the file and identify 7 everything. 8 MR. JOYCE: Identify everything. And what you need 9 to have copied would only be that which is not as 10 readily accessible to us. 11 MR. ZIMMER: That's fine. That's a good idea. 12 MR. JOYCE: I knew I came down here for a reason. 13 That's the environmentalist in me. I want to save 14 a tree. 15 MR. ZIMMER: 16 Q. Why don't we do that, Mr. Scalmanini. If you 17 can, go through your file and identify whatever the 18 titles of these documents are. Some of them may be 19 referenced on your reference sheet. 20 MR. HUBBARD: Everything. 21 THE WITNESS: Everything that I have just pulled 22 out here is Xerox copies from Durbin, which is cited in 23 our references. 24 MR. JOYCE: Just so I'm clear -- and I don't mean 25 to interject. I need to so I can make sure that I have 194 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 a clear record. 2 Everything that you just referred to is the loose 3 pieces that you have sitting in front of you -- 4 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 5 MR. JOYCE: -- other than the original map that you 6 have prepared? 7 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 8 MR. JOYCE: Can we do this? I don't particularly 9 care to have them copied, we can get them out of Durbin. 10 MR. ZIMMER: I want to go through the file from 11 front to back, identify what's there. 12 MR. JOYCE: I think we need to separate by the 13 sheets so we know exactly what we are talking about. 14 MR. ZIMMER: 15 Q. Why don't we start with the top sheet, if you 16 can, identify what that is. 17 A. It's a portion of Plate 1 from Durbin. 18 Do you want to say all of Durbin's? 19 MR. JOYCE: That's sufficient. 20 THE WITNESS: And these others are the same. 21 MR. JOYCE: Are they a separate plate. 22 THE WITNESS: These are. This is the lower half 23 of -- 24 MR. JOYCE: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: -- Plate 1. This goes -- 195 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. JOYCE: Got you. 2 THE WITNESS: -- et cetera. 3 MR. JOYCE: The first sheet you have is Plate 1? 4 The second one is the bottom half, Xerox of Plate 1? 5 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 6 MR. JOYCE: Third, same? 7 THE WITNESS: Same. 8 MR. JOYCE: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: Left side as compared to right side. 10 MR. JOYCE: Got you. 11 Fourth? 12 THE WITNESS: Don't know. 13 MR. ZIMMER: 14 Q. The fourth -- 15 MR. JOYCE: That is from Durbin? 16 THE WITNESS: Looks like it. 17 MR. ZIMMER: Show that to -- 18 We can go off the record. 19 (A discussion is held off the record.) 20 MR. ZIMMER: Back on. 21 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. 22 MR. JOYCE: In the interest of certainty and 23 clarity on the record, let that be the one we get 24 photocopied and append it as the next exhibit in order. 25 THE WITNESS: At least we'll have a copy of that. 196 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. HUBBARD: He will be the one that doesn't know 2 the source of Exhibit E. 3 MR. ZIMMER: Yes. 4 MR. JOYCE: Just this one page, I know where this 5 came from. 6 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. 7 MR. JOYCE: I suspect I know where that came from, 8 but I'm not positive. 9 MR. HUBBARD: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 What else you want to go through? 12 MR. ZIMMER: I think Mr. Joyce talked about the 13 reports that you looked at. 14 MR. JOYCE: This will be "E." 15 Do you have any objection if I mark an "E" down in 16 the corner? 17 THE WITNESS: No. That's fine. 18 MR. JOYCE: Before we get too much further, here is 19 the cross section. 20 Is this from Durbin as well? 21 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 22 MR. JOYCE: ^ Okay. "F." 23 MR. ZIMMER: Be sure you are sure that we have the 24 other ones, these (indicating). 25 MR. JOYCE: These are out of Durbin. I know that. 197 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. 2 I have a map of, I think, service area boundaries 3 of the Los Angeles County systems. 4 MR. ZIMMER: Water works District Number 40. 5 THE WITNESS: This has nothing to do with basin 6 boundary. Someone gave me this. I stuffed it in the 7 file. If you want a copy, you are welcome to it. 8 MR. JOYCE: I think we have seen that or gotten 9 that already. 10 MR. ZIMMER: Not sure if we got that when we took 11 the county. 12 MR. JOYCE: It's one of the documents produced in 13 the person most knowledgeable depo. 14 THE WITNESS: This is a collection of pages copied 15 out of Bloyd, just for convenience. 16 MR. JOYCE: On that issue, can I ask, are those the 17 more significant or relevant portions of the entire 18 report from your vantage point? 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 20 MR. JOYCE: In that case, I need to have that 21 marked. 22 MR. ZIMMER: Yeah, we need to have that marked. 23 MR. HUBBARD: Do you mind him marking that? Maybe 24 you can put a sticky on it. 25 MR. JOYCE: Either way. Do you want a sticky or 198 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 mark it? 2 THE WITNESS: I will mark it. 3 MR. JOYCE: ^ Just make it "G," "G" down in the 4 right-hand corner. 5 MR. ZIMMER: He put it in the upper right-hand 6 corner for the record. 7 MR. JOYCE: That's all right. Still marked. 8 THE WITNESS: These are copies of -- 9 MR. JOYCE: Carlson, '98. 10 THE WITNESS: I think so. They were actually -- 11 MR. JOYCE: That's the second Carlson. 12 THE WITNESS: They are somebody else's exhibits 13 which were copied and given to you. They were already 14 labeled Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 2. 15 We need to describe what it is. It's the "Regional 16 water table (1996) and water-table changes in the 17 Antelope Valley ground-water basin, California," by 18 Carl S. Carlson, et al. 19 There are two sheets of the same thing on which are 20 hand-drawn by somebody properties which I think are 21 quote, unquote, "in this lawsuit." 22 MR. JOYCE: I see that's -- they have overlined -- 23 the water district 40 map has been superimposed over the 24 Lancaster area, is what it appears to be. I may be 25 wrong. 199 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 THE WITNESS: There is on this other one that -- 2 somebody else's Exhibit 1, there are other properties 3 that are highlighted out here in the Neenach subbasin 4 here, Rosamond. 5 MR. JOYCE: Those are mine. 6 THE WITNESS: As well as some properties here east 7 of Lancaster. 8 MR. ZIMMER: Those are probably -- 9 THE WITNESS: PC01 and 2, whatever that stands for, 10 and 3 for that matter. 1, 2, 3. I don't know what 11 those are. 12 MR. ZIMMER: These are probably more fitting for 13 Phase 2. 14 MR. JOYCE: I am not concerned about them right 15 now. 16 THE WITNESS: Copy of a page of a letter, I think, 17 from you to Theresa Antonucci, listing some things that 18 were thought to be -- we talked about these last time, 19 that I had written one of the presentations. 20 THE WITNESS: A-N-T-O-N-U-C-C-I. 21 Collection of Xerox copies from USGS Water Supply 22 Paper 578 called the Mojave Desert Region, dated 1992. 23 MR. JOYCE: Is that one of the -- 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 MR. ZIMMER: It's not. 200 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Can we get those marked by you. We will have them 2 copied for us. 3 THE WITNESS: What do we call them? 4 MR. JOYCE: ^ That will be "H." 5 Here we go, sir, if you need to use this 6 (indicating). 7 MR. ZIMMER: What are we marking these? "H"? 8 MR. JOYCE: It's some maps or Xerox copies of plot 9 mappings from an earlier study. 10 MR. ZIMMER: 11 Q. Were there any other documents so far, 12 Mr. Scalmanini, that we talked about that are not on 13 your reference sheet? Any of the other things not on 14 the reference sheet? 15 A. I brought some things last time. I didn't 16 bring those with me this time. The stuff I brought was 17 the stuff I used or relied on. 18 MR. JOYCE: Okay. Okay. What else? 19 I guess your intent was to have him identify what 20 he has with him. 21 MR. ZIMMER: Right. 22 MR. JOYCE: What else do you have in your file 23 there? 24 THE WITNESS: I have a file that is basically a 25 copy of billing records, an engagement letter and then 201 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 some stuff on billing instructions, since we ended up 2 billing a handful of different entities, whether they be 3 county government or water district. 4 MR. JOYCE: The file that you just identified on 5 the front says, "Administrative." 6 I assume that there is nothing in there that has 7 any geological, hydrogeological or scientific 8 significance issues concerned about here. 9 THE WITNESS: Only the way they frame the question, 10 which is to write a paper, which is what I did on -- 11 MR. JOYCE: Is it within that file, the charge that 12 was given to you? 13 THE WITNESS: The engagement letter I referred to. 14 MR. ZIMMER: And it would show how you filled the 15 time in terms of billing your time? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 MR. ZIMMER: We will make a copy of it. 18 MR. HUBBARD: Can we take a quick break? 19 (A recess is taken.) 20 MR. JOYCE: Back on the record. 21 We're going to have -- 22 MR. ZIMMER: ^ The mark on that will be "I." 23 MR. JOYCE: Once they have had a chance to 24 segregate out what may be claimed to be privileged, 25 Mr. Scalmanini, the file B that you pulled, the blue 202 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 sheet -- 2 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 3 MR. JOYCE: -- does that, by way of content, have 4 anything to do with any hydrology or the science behind 5 any of the maps? 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 MR. ZIMMER: 8 Q. What is that? 9 A. Correspondence, copy of -- 10 Q. There is some handwritten notes. 11 A. That falls in the category of correspondence. 12 This is some notes I took on an undated date. Here is a 13 note (indicating). Copy of a transmittal of the report 14 that we looked at today to other counsel from Best, Best 15 & Krieger. Deposition notice. 16 MR. ZIMMER: ^ Why don't we mark that next in 17 order, "J." 18 MR. JOYCE: "J." 19 MR. ZIMMER: Want to take a look and see if there 20 is any letters to counsel? 21 MR. JOYCE: If you are standing there looking at 22 it, that -- 23 MR. ZIMMER: I'm not reading it. 24 MR. JOYCE: I meant that as a joke. 25 MR. HUBBARD: Is there any reason you need to look 203 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 over his shoulder? 2 MR. ZIMMER: I need to know if we need it copied or 3 not. 4 THE WITNESS: Don't stand there. I will show you 5 the stuff. 6 MR. ZIMMER: See, Bob, you are creating issues. 7 MR. JOYCE: Are you saying it's my fault again? 8 I think we attached -- I think we attached as a 9 request for production to the deposition notice, your 10 complete file. This is all stuff that's part of his 11 file. 12 MR. HUBBARD: I'm physically more comfortable with 13 you not looking over my client's shoulder. That's all. 14 MR. ZIMMER: I'm off to the side now. How's that? 15 I couldn't see what he is looking at. 16 MR. HUBBARD: What's the purpose of you standing 17 right there? 18 MR. ZIMMER: So I can generally see what he is 19 doing. 20 THE WITNESS: The next file includes copies of 21 documents that we downloaded from the Internet while we 22 were first contacted about this, to get an idea what was 23 out there in the way of publicly available information 24 quickly as compared to library-type documents. 25 And then I made reference to work by Richter, and 204 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 there are copies of the pages from Richter that we 2 referred to, including some of the figures that are in 3 there. 4 MR. ZIMMER: ^ That's good enough. We will mark 5 that as Exhibit K. 6 THE WITNESS: When you asked me about the technical 7 basis for doing some of this, this is where it's 8 located. 9 MR. JOYCE: Okay. There is only one. It's 10 Exhibit G. It's in the upper right-hand corner. 11 THE WITNESS: To dismiss it, there is another copy 12 of the map that was in the report, just an extra. 13 Lastly, there are a couple of Manila folders that 14 include some analysis of estimated applied water 15 requirements for carrots. 16 We were asked to look at that, some number that I 17 think was 5. And there is some analysis to that. 18 MR. JOYCE: Can we get the water consumption carrot 19 analysis. 20 MR. ZIMMER: Mark that collectively. Those are 21 differentiations to each one of the Manila folders, or 22 are they basically the same thing you described. 23 THE WITNESS: There is some duplication, but 24 basically it's all in the same category, looking at 25 Using Reference Evapotranspiration. 205 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. ZIMMER: 2 Q. That consists generally of three Manila 3 folders? 4 A. Two. 5 Q. Two. Okay. We can mark those collectively. 6 Is there some reason this is set out in separate 7 folders? We might need to mark them separately or -- 8 A. I extracted some pieces for ease of carrying 9 once upon a time and left some of the greater bulk 10 behind in terms of the general reference material that 11 might be out there. 12 Q. Okay. 13 ^ Between those two folders, we can mark as 14 Exhibit L, the first of those Manila folders -- the 15 first one of those Manila folders, and the second one as 16 Exhibit M. 17 A. I should tell you, has nothing to do with basin 18 boundaries. 19 Q. Okay. 20 Let's have the court reporter make a copy of those. 21 A. She better be quick. 22 Q. She better be quick. 23 A. She has about five minutes to copy all that 24 stuff. 25 Q. The court reporter can take charge of it -- 206 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. No, she can't. 2 Q. -- and forward those back to you. 3 A. No, I don't do that. The original files don't 4 go anywhere. 5 I will copy it if you want, any way you want to do 6 it. It will not stay here. When I leave, it leaves. I 7 don't care about your rules. 8 MR. HUBBARD: That's fine. Many experts demand 9 that. That's not unusual. 10 MR. JOYCE: I will sit here very quietly and let 11 Richard work this one out. 12 MR. ZIMMER: What time is it? 13 (A discussion is held off the record.) 14 MR. HUBBARD: Go on the record. That's fine. 15 MR. JOYCE: Is that acceptable? 16 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 17 MR. JOYCE: Is that okay with you, Rich? 18 MR. ZIMMER: That's fine. 19 MR. JOYCE: In the interest of facilitating getting 20 the transcript and our stuff to our people, we need a 21 quick turnaround. 48 hours would be helpful. Okay? 22 That sounds like we have an agreement. 23 MR. HUBBARD: Yes. 24 MR. ZIMMER: That's -- 25 MR. JOYCE: Is that -- 207 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. ZIMMER: Mr. Scalmanini, that's okay with you? 2 THE WITNESS: I already said that. 3 MR. JOYCE: Exhibit -- 4 MS. THYNE: This is the only document? 5 MR. JOYCE: Only thing we need is date and 6 addressee. 7 MR. ZIMMER: 8 Q. While they are looking at the documents, you 9 said there were things you brought with you at the time 10 of the first deposition which you did not bring back 11 with you. 12 What things were those? 13 A. There were reports, names of all of which -- 14 titles of all of which were asked and recorded the first 15 time around. 16 I didn't rely on them in preparing this report or 17 map. I brought them because I basically brought the 18 library for the Antelope Valley area with me the first 19 time. I didn't feel like hauling them back the second 20 time, so I didn't. 21 Q. Is there any reason that you only attached the 22 "A" cross section as opposed to any of the other cross 23 sections that you reviewed and considered? 24 A. Simplicity, for lack of a better term, that the 25 vertical basin boundaries are described in words, as the 208 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 base of unconsolidated materials, and felt one picture 2 tells enough about that. 3 It is a very small scale to cover thousands of feet 4 of thickness in some basis, didn't put multiple cross 5 sections in, wasn't willing to say it is a specific 6 depth at any specific location, but rather just to 7 describe it. 8 Q. Are you saying at the one cross section 9 represents the entire area that you have drawn on 10 Exhibit B? 11 A. As far as illustrating schematically how there 12 are layers of aquifer materials confining bed and 13 ultimately a bottom to the unconsolidated materials, one 14 cross section illustrates that you can draw and others 15 have sections in other places where some of what's 16 shown -- there may or may not exist, for example, the 17 thick, confining bed labels. The lacustrine, 18 L-A-C-U-S-T-R-I-N-E, I think, clay, that doesn't exist 19 to the far west in the basin. 20 Again, schematically, the fact that there are 21 upper, middle and lower aquifers and ultimately a bottom 22 to the aquifer system is as well as illustrated 23 schematically by that section as would be by others. 24 Q. But as far as the exact locations, the depth, 25 whether it, in fact, exists at all in any particular 209 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 location in this area you have drawn, that may or may 2 not be the case? 3 A. Generally recognized that a bottom exists 4 everywhere. Every last individual detail of the -- 5 detail of the variation vertically would vary from a 6 little to greatly in various parts of this overall 7 basin. 8 Q. So this cross section gives us a very general 9 idea what's out there in this particular location where 10 the cross section is taken? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In the area you have drawn and the cross 13 section does not show any faults or subbasins; would 14 that be correct? 15 A. I don't think so. 16 It actually shows the approximate location of the 17 line or boundary between the North Muroc and Lancaster 18 subbasins. It goes across that boundary line. 19 Q. Is that a fault line? 20 A. No, it's a quote, unquote, "bedrock high." 21 Bedrock is higher there than it is in other parts of the 22 overall basin. 23 Q. Would that structure affect the conductivity or 24 movement of ground water across that area? 25 A. Conductivity, no. And movement, yes. 210 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Q. How would it affect the movement? 2 A. The fact that there is a bedrock high means 3 there is a much smaller cross-sectional area through 4 which water can flow. So the flow would be less than 5 over a greater or thicker cross-sectional flow area, 6 other things all being equal. 7 Q. At various places throughout this area that you 8 have drawn on the map, you would have varying areas of 9 flow based on whatever the geologic structures were? 10 A. Directions, rates, absolutely, and differing 11 again at different points in time. 12 Q. Different points in time because of differences 13 in ground-water levels? 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. On page 3 of your report, in the last full 16 paragraph you say, "All potential lateral boundaries 17 which do not impede or obstruct the movement of ground 18 water are noted by Richter to be inappropriate sections 19 for a basin (or subbasin) boundary. Examples of such, 20 nonboundaries include a ground water divide; the limit 21 of a confined aquifer (transition from confined to 22 unconfined conditions)," and goes on with some other 23 things. 24 But what are you differentiating there? 25 Differentiating a boundary from something else? 211 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 A. I don't understand the question. I'm not 2 differentiating anything that I know of. 3 Q. What are you saying there? 4 A. That if -- if -- back up. 5 This listing of potential boundary parameters 6 that's on the preceding page and a half include a number 7 of things that do not impede or obstruct the movement of 8 ground water. 9 And, therefore, it would be an inappropriate 10 selection or inappropriate factors to use to determine 11 the basin boundary. 12 Q. So those are things -- 13 A. We went over this an hour ago. 14 Q. These are things that just by their nature do 15 not have movement of water from one area to the next? 16 A. They are things that do have movement of water 17 from one area to the next. They are not appropriate 18 basin boundary. They are like the political boundary 19 we talked about at that time. 20 Q. Such as a ground-water divide? 21 A. Ground-water divide, right. Divided, I will 22 call it, you know, a no-flow condition, but it quickly 23 changes and can move in time, and it's not a hard, fixed 24 boundary. 25 Q. The other ones are not hard and fixed either. 212 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 They are still -- 2 A. Yeah, they are. Limit of a confined aquifer is 3 pretty hard and fixed. It has to do with the physical 4 location of materials in the subsurface. 5 And alluvial embayment, same thing. A topographic 6 ridge or divide, same thing. Topography, the shoreline 7 of an ocean, bay or lake can move a small amount with 8 time, but basically does not move. River, stream or 9 unlined canal, political boundary. 10 Q. Those are the hard, fixed type? 11 A. Yes, but they don't, by themselves, you know 12 dictate no-flow conditions. 13 MR. HUBBARD: Can I point out that it's about 3:35, 14 and I would like my client to be aware of that and him 15 make a decision about his flight. And maybe if you 16 could tell him how much longer you are anticipating 17 going -- 18 MR. ZIMMER: We got a ways to go, plus we got a 19 complicating fact that we don't have all this data 20 worked out. 21 MR. DUNN: Want to go off the record? 22 (A discussion is held off the record.) 23 MR. ZIMMER: We have been off the record. We have 24 had some discussions. We have all come to the 25 conclusion there is no way we are going to finish 213 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 Mr. Scalmanini today. 2 In addition, he has a personal appointment he would 3 like to attend. 4 All counsel have agreed that we will continue 5 Mr. Scalmanini's deposition to a future date agreeable 6 to all parties, and the next deposition, in order in 7 this case to complete Mr. Scalmanini's deposition. 8 In the meantime, the documents we discussed will be 9 copied. Mr. Scalmanini will have the documents copied, 10 sent to the court reporter within 48 hours. 11 The court reporter can then give copies to anyone 12 who requests copies of the documents. 13 The deposition transcript can go ahead and be 14 transcribed. 15 You can provide a copy to Mr. Scalmanini and have 16 Mr. Scalmanini review it, make any changes he wishes to 17 make in it. 18 Within how many days after, recognizing that we 19 have an August -- 20 MR. JOYCE: Mr. Scalmanini -- Mr. Scalmanini, can 21 you hold one quick second until I get a chance to get my 22 two cents in. 23 MR. ZIMMER: Mr. Scalmanini, how long do you think 24 you will take to review the deposition transcript after 25 the court reporter looks at it. 214 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen the first one. 2 MR. HUBBARD: Maybe we should go off the record. 3 MR. JOYCE: I think -- 4 (A discussion is held off the record.) 5 MR. ZIMMER: We have had another discussion. 6 MR. JOYCE: I received my copy of the first session 7 about four days, five days ago. Just recently came out. 8 (A discussion is held off the record.) 9 MR. ZIMMER: We have had another discussion off the 10 record. We're continuing to relieve the court reporter 11 of her duty under the Code. 12 Mr. Scalmanini will make copies of the records in 13 his file that we identified here today and forward 14 copies of those Federal Express to the court reporter 15 within 48 hours. 16 Mr. Scalmanini thereafter will have another two 17 weeks to review his deposition transcript, Volumes I and 18 II, and make any changes he deems are necessary. 19 The deposition transcript will be signed under 20 penalty of perjury. If it's not signed for any reason 21 or not returned, a copy can be used with full force and 22 effect as the original as if it had been signed. 23 We will pick up the balance of the deposition on a 24 date that's convenient with everyone's calendars. 25 MR. JOYCE: In that regard, Mr. Scalmanini, would 215 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 you at all consent to the idea of giving what I 2 anticipate is going to take me -- what I need to do, the 3 questions I have, that I have an hour, hour and 4 15 minutes, max. 5 And I was thinking, if push comes to shove, maybe a 6 telephonic deposition, wherever we were located from. 7 Is that a possibility? 8 THE WITNESS: What's the general subject matter? 9 Am I going to have to point to stuff? 10 MR. JOYCE: Cleanup stuff. I got what you got. If 11 I want to say pull out your map, you are going to have 12 it, and I will have it. It's not going to be hard to 13 get it done. 14 I just want to try to figure out ways to make it as 15 easy and as reasonable, soon as practical. 16 So you don't have to make the decision today. Give 17 that some thought, and we can communicate and pick a 18 date and make that a possibility. 19 MR. HUBBARD: Something to think about. 20 MR. JOYCE: Something to think about. 21 MR. ZIMMER: Lawyers will have to work together to 22 set the date. 23 MR. HUBBARD: I stipulate to the terms you 24 mentioned. I want to make clear you didn't suggest 25 otherwise, that he will FedEx the documents out in 216 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 48 hours. They should be received this week. 2 MR. JOYCE: Did we resolve Exhibit I, the 3 communication? 4 MR. HUBBARD: There are three letters that I would 5 like to have, Jeff. 6 Do you know who is the party involved? 7 MR. JOYCE: Can I ask that we identify the dates of 8 those? 9 MR. ZIMMER: You know what they are. 10 MR. HUBBARD: Yes, there are -- I think it's -- 11 there is an October 30, 2001 letter, and then there is a 12 November -- 13 MR. ZIMMER: Bates stamped. 14 MR. JOYCE: They have been marked. The whole 15 packet has been marked, but those two letters are part 16 of it. 17 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't you tab those three letters. 18 MR. HUBBARD: Do you have a yellow sticky? 19 MR. ZIMMER: I got some. 20 MR. HUBBARD: November 27, 2001 letter. And I'm 21 not commenting whether I think they are privileged or 22 not. I just think -- 23 MR. JOYCE: You want Mr. Dunn to have the 24 opportunity since it's his privilege? 25 MR. ZIMMER: When you copy these, copy all but the 217 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 three with the blue -- 2 Counsel, maybe you can check with Mr. Dunn, and he 3 can copy all of them. 4 MR. JOYCE: Copy them all unless Mr. Dunn's tends 5 to assert -- 6 MS. THYNE: There is three letters. 7 MR. ZIMMER: These letters are not letters to 8 Mr. Scalmanini requesting that he take particular action 9 or what's being asked of him. 10 MS. THYNE: First letter is stamped "Work product 11 privilege." 12 MR. ZIMMER: In terms of the content of the letter, 13 is it a letter that was sent to the expert asking him to 14 do things? 15 MR. JOYCE: Both. 16 MS. THYNE: We will let Jeff Dunn look at these. 17 MR. JOYCE: Those letters are addressed to 18 Mr. Scalmanini; am I correct? 19 MR. HUBBARD: No. 20 MR. JOYCE: Okay. Which one is? Which one isn't? 21 MR. HUBBARD: One letter is addressed to 22 Theresa Antonucci, October 30th letter. 23 MR. JOYCE: From who? 24 MR. HUBBARD: I believe from the deponent. 25 MR. JOYCE: From Mr. Scalmanini to her? 218 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 MR. HUBBARD: Yes. 2 MR. JOYCE: What is the date of that? 3 MR. HUBBARD: 2001. There is a copy, which is why 4 I say there is three letters. 5 MR. JOYCE: Okay. It appears twice. Once 6 original, once -- 7 MR. HUBBARD: Yes. 8 The other is a letter from -- I believe it's Eric 9 Garner to the deponent. 10 MR. JOYCE: G-A-R-N-E-R. 11 And the date of that is? 12 MS. THYNE: November -- 13 MR. HUBBARD: -- 27. 14 MR. JOYCE: 2001? 15 MR. HUBBARD: Yes. 16 MR. JOYCE: Thank you. 17 MR. HUBBARD: I'm making no comment on my opinion. 18 MR. JOYCE: I understand. 19 I presume Eric Garner is an associate. 20 MR. HUBBARD: I believe he is a partner at Best, 21 Best & Krieger. 22 MR. JOYCE: Very good. 23 MR. HUBBARD: You might want to call, and he might 24 say, "Of course, produce." 25 MR. ZIMMER: Everybody is agreeable to the 219 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 stipulation? 2 MR. JOYCE: Agreed. 3 MS. THYNE: Agreed. 4 MR. HUBBARD: So stipulated. 5 MR. JOYCE: Everybody unanimously consented to the 6 stipulation. 7 (Whereupon the documents referred to are marked by 8 the reporter as Plaintiff Exhibits E through M for 9 identification.) 10 (The proceedings concluded at 3:46 p.m.) 11 *** 12 I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws 13 of the State of California that the foregoing is true 14 and correct. 15 16 Executed at ________________________, California, 17 on _________________________________. 18 19 20 _______________________________________ JOSEPH C. SCALMANINI, P.E. 21 22 23 24 25 220 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210 1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ss 2 I, INGRID HOSEA, CSR 7798, do hereby declare: 3 4 That, prior to being examined, the witness named 5 in the foregoing deposition was by me duly sworn 6 pursuant to Section 2093(b) and 2094 of the Code of 7 Civil Procedure; 8 9 That said deposition was taken down by me in 10 shorthand at the time and place therein named and 11 thereafter reduced to text under my direction. 12 13 I further declare that I have no interest in the 14 event of the action. 15 16 I declare under penalty of perjury under the 17 laws of the State of California that the foregoing is 18 true and correct. 19 20 WITNESS my hand this _____________ day of 21 ___________________________, _________. 22 23 ________________________________________________ INGRID HOSEA, CSR 7798 24 25 221 HUTCHINGS COURT REPORTERS, LLC - GLOBAL LEGAL SERVICES 800.697.3210